Tickets via Barnham

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Jan Mayen

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Which routes can you use a season ticket from Margate to Weymouth route via Barnham on?

I know the shortest is via Hastings and along the coast, but can they be used on other routes?

On another thread someone suggests they can be used via London. Is that correct?

I used a Three Bridges to Weymouth season route Barnham and have been charged extra for traveling via Brighton.

Many thanks
 
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Alfonso

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You can travel via Tonbridge-Redhill. I don't know why you were charged extra to travel from three bridges to wherever via Brighton...it's a valid route. You certainly can't travel via London on this ticket. EDIT...I based my comments on journeys I'd made from Canterbury West, assuming, perhaps wrongly, that routes would be the same for Ramsgate.
 
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CyrusWuff

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Undertaking a Fares Check using NFM64 fares, there were no "via Barnham" tickets, though I suspect that's unlikely to affect the relevance of a given Routeing Point.

Margate has Faversham and Ramsgate Group (Minster and Ramsgate) as possible Routeing Points, and Weymouth is a member of Weymouth Routeing Group (as are Dorchester South and West, and Upwey).

Using NFM64 fares, only Faversham succeeds the Fares Check, but if we use current fares (which have the "via Barnham" routeing option) Faversham fails as there are no "via Barnham" fares for that flow, but both Minster and Ramsgate pass.

As such, the set of permitted routes (for routeing guide purposes) comprises the shortest route from Margate to Ramsgate Group, then the mapped routes onwards to Weymouth Group that pass through Barnham.

Ignoring the "LONDON" option, our potential combinations of maps are DE+SW, FA+SW, FC+SW, KA+CW, RA+CW and RA+SW

Map SW doesn't include Barnham, so we can exclude combinations that include it, which leaves us with KA+CW and RA+CW.

Map KA gives us Ramsgate - Dover - Ashford - Hastings and then CW gives us the Coastway across to Southampton and on to Weymouth from there.
Map RA gives Ramsgate - Canterbury - Ashford, where we change to map CW.

I can't see an obvious combination that would permit travel via Three Bridges or Tonbridge - Redhill on such a ticket, though splitting the check into Margate - Barnham and Barnham - Weymouth may yield different results.
 

JB_B

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...I used a Three Bridges to Weymouth season route Barnham and have been charged extra for traveling via Brighton.

Many thanks

Just on this part of your question, tickets from Three Bridges to Weymouth routed:Via Barnham (00947) are valid via Brighton and NRE will offer tickets routed this way for itineraries via Brighton. What happened when you were charged extra?
 

paul1609

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It complicated! In terms of mileage the shortest route between Barnham and Ashford International (and therefore stations beyond) was along the coast via Polegate and the Spur to Stone Cross Pevensey. This route was closed in 1974 and passengers were advised to change at Eastbourne.
Barnham to Ashford International via Eastbourne is 88 miles 72 Chains. Barnham to Ashford International via Horsham, Three Bridges, Redhill, Tonbridge is 89 miles 72 chains. The via Edenbridge route has always been allowed as a consequence. There was an issue about whether the route Barnham tickets from East Kent were valid via London so to clarify matters most of the tickets whilst described as route Barnham are actually now issued as route Polegate/ Edenbridge.
To make it even more complicated there was (and maybe still is) an easement that allows passengers from West of West Worthing along the coastway to Eastbourne to travel via Haywards Heath.
 

RJ

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There was an issue about whether the route Barnham tickets from East Kent were valid via London so to clarify matters most of the tickets whilst described as route Barnham are actually now issued as route Polegate/ Edenbridge.

They were valid via London. Years ago somebody put a negative easement in the data to stop the journey planners showing these routes, but this was never actually published in the National Routeing Guide. Now that there's a requirement to check journey planners first, it's likely a no-go.

There was an email addresses TOCs could message to have exceptions added to permitted routes without going through the proper process to change validity. Asides from allowing this sort of thing, there are limitations to the journey planners which can prevent intended routes from being checked properly.

The flipside however is that the journey planners, particularly National Rail allows some extraordinarily good value routes so it's not all bad! Maybe the journey planners having the status of having the final say on validity should stay as it is.
 
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paul1609

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They were valid via London. Years ago somebody put a negative easement in the data to stop the journey planners showing these routes, but this was never actually published in the National Routeing Guide. Now that there's a requirement to check journey planners first, it's probably a no-go.
I dont doubt your right but obviously they were never intended to be. Its strange that they are still described as route barnham on the likes of br fares. When you buy them from the Southern website or tvm machine it route Edenbridge/Polegate
 

RJ

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I dont doubt your right but obviously they were never intended to be. Its strange that they are still described as route barnham on the likes of br fares. When you buy them from the Southern website or tvm machine it route Edenbridge/Polegate

Possibly not, but as a customer of the railways, I've never felt it's my place to question the intention or spirit of any of the ticketing rules. If the rulebook permits it then it's permitted! I'm pretty sure the rulebook is considered sacrosanct on the railways and ticketing shouldn't be an exception to that.
 
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JonathanH

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I dont doubt your right but obviously they were never intended to be. Its strange that they are still described as route barnham on the likes of br fares. When you buy them from the Southern website or tvm machine it route Edenbridge/Polegate
Some are via Barnham, some via Edenbridge / Polegate - it depends on the origin / destination pairs. Bear in mind that in some circumstances, route Edenbridge / Polegate would permit travel via Worplesdon and the South Western Main Line which isn't intended.
 

BluePenguin

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This question seems to pop up on this forum from time to time. Every time it does I become nervous. We all have our favourite routes for these fares which we quietly and happily use without hassle. Let’s hope that one day does not change...
 

Watershed

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Now that there's a requirement to check journey planners first, it's likely a no-go.
I can't find any such requirement in the current Routeing Guide Instructions, nor in the Routeing Guide in Detail.
 

RJ

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I can't find any such requirement in the current Routeing Guide Instructions, nor in the Routeing Guide in Detail.

http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide - it says routes should be validated using the National Rail journey planner. If you can’t then you may not have a leg to stand on if your chosen route is disputed. This is also mentioned in the disputed routings section of the instructions.

I wouldn’t advocate using routes that can’t be validated by the journey planner, but if others wish to do so that’s their shout.

The Journey Planner has stuff programmed in to it that allows so many bizarre/tremendous value routings that it’s not necessarily a bad thing that any route shown in it will be automatically considered to be valid.
 

Watershed

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http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide - it says routes should be validated using the National Rail journey planner
It says that "we would strongly advise you to make use of the journey planner". After the events of the last year I am sure we are all familiar with the difference between strong advice and law!

If you can’t then you may not have a leg to stand on if your chosen route is disputed.
If you can't get your chosen route to show in NRE or another journey planner then of course it will probably be an uphill battle with staff on the frontline (and even then, not all would accept NRE itineraries as valid).

But if/when it comes to discussing things afterwards, a journey planner is not an absolute necessity to prove a disputed route. It certainly helps, but I wouldn't suggest that a ticket can't be used over a permitted route just because journey planners won't offer an itinerary.

This is also mentioned in the disputed routings section of the instructions.
It states that NRE reflects the Routeing Guide, but we know that is not always the case. In any case, the disputed routings section doesn't deal with disputes over what the permitted routes are.

It gives the procedure for situations where it is agreed that something isn't a permitted route, but where it is argued that it would historically have been a reasonable route (and should thus be restored as a permitted route).

I wouldn’t advocate using routes that can’t be validated by the journey planner, but if others wish to do so that’s their shout.
I quite agree; using routes that aren't 'obviously reasonable' will often be a risky strategy. It has to be considered whether there are alternative means of using the ticket (or alternative tickets) that have less potential for conflict.

The Journey Planner has stuff programmed in to it that allows so many bizarre/tremendous value routings that it’s not necessarily a bad thing that any route shown in it will be automatically considered to be valid.
That's true, but you need to know what journey planners to use and how to make the most of their "features" ;)
 

yorkie

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I used a Three Bridges to Weymouth season route Barnham and have been charged extra for traveling via Brighton.
How much were you charged, what were you sold, and what reason was given?

I hope you complain; you should be refunded the incorrect charge as well as compensated for your time.
 

RJ

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It says that "we would strongly advise you to make use of the journey planner". After the events of the last year I am sure we are all familiar with the difference between strong advice and law!


If you can't get your chosen route to show in NRE or another journey planner then of course it will probably be an uphill battle with staff on the frontline (and even then, not all would accept NRE itineraries as valid).

But if/when it comes to discussing things afterwards, a journey planner is not an absolute necessity to prove a disputed route. It certainly helps, but I wouldn't suggest that a ticket can't be used over a permitted route just because journey planners won't offer an itinerary.


It states that NRE reflects the Routeing Guide, but we know that is not always the case. In any case, the disputed routings section doesn't deal with disputes over what the permitted routes are.

It gives the procedure for situations where it is agreed that something isn't a permitted route, but where it is argued that it would historically have been a reasonable route (and should thus be restored as a permitted route).


I quite agree; using routes that aren't 'obviously reasonable' will often be a risky strategy. It has to be considered whether there are alternative means of using the ticket (or alternative tickets) that have less potential for conflict.


That's true, but you need to know what journey planners to use and how to make the most of their "features" ;)

A lot of it is semantics. I’ve never agreed with the tactic of people wilfully ignoring what’s written in the rulebook to suit their own ends.

If going down the road of using unreasonable but permitted routes then you’re making a rod for your back if you choose routes that can’t be validated by the Journey Planner. Before that became a thing, Barnham tickets could be used via London but now, I wouldn’t recommend it.

Ticket validity is a far more technical matter than people realise. It requires expert knowledge to adjudicate in disputes if a member of staff who is not familiar with the ticket decides to invoke fare evasion procedures. Almost always, no such expert is available so you’re really making life difficult if you insist on using routes that aren’t shown as valid in the journey planner.

As for the journey planners, that’s pretty much what I do - work out what the underlying rules are and make the most of them. And it’s not just railway systems - other industries have interesting IT arrangements that allow for great value to be had or profits to be made!
 
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Jan Mayen

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Many thanks for all replies. The fare has been refunded. They accept the ticket is valid via Brighton.
 

FenMan

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A lot of it is semantics. I’ve never agreed with the tactic of people wilfully ignoring what’s written in the rulebook to suit their own ends.

If going down the road of using unreasonable but permitted routes then you’re making a rod for your back if you choose routes that can’t be validated by the Journey Planner. Before that became a thing, Barnham tickets could be used via London but now, I wouldn’t recommend it.

Ticket validity is a far more technical matter than people realise. It requires expert knowledge to adjudicate in disputes if a member of staff who is not familiar with the ticket decides to invoke fare evasion procedures. Almost always, no such expert is available so you’re really making life difficult if you insist on using routes that aren’t shown as valid in the journey planner.

As for the journey planners, that’s pretty much what I do - work out what the underlying rules are and make the most of them. And it’s not just railway systems - other industries have interesting IT arrangements that allow for great value to be had or profits to be made!

Unfortunately NRE can report some obvious nonsense that is unhelpful to customers. A good example is the fares checking for North Downs Line stations that used to be members of the Farnborough Stations group/routeing point that I assume was valid in the days of of NFM64, the demise of which a few years ago has resulted in routeing anomalies to hundreds of destinations. Staff knowledge would have to be truly encyclopaedic to know that (to use a deliberately obscure example as I travel via Paddington regardless) tickets from North Camp or Sandhurst to Broxbourne are valid via Reading/Paddington (a perfectly reasonable and obvious route) whereas tickets from the two stations in-between, Farnborough North and Blackwater, are apparently not valid that way. The ticket prices from all four stations to Broxbourne are identical, so the different routeing validities make no sense.

It used to be even more fun for tickets to Wembley Stadium, where travel via Reading/Paddington was barred for return tickets but was permitted in one direction only on a single! That particular anomaly was fixed and returns are now valid by this route, possibly after I mentioned it on this forum.
 
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