Tickets with no, or only partial, validity due to route or TOC restrictions

[ForTheLoveOf]

I have recently come across a number of tickets which would appear to have no validity whatsoever, or in some cases where it is not possible to make the entire journey, by virtue of route or TOC restrictions which have been applied to that ticket.

A good example of this problem would be this fare (a Super Off-Peak Single at £15.00) from North Wembley to Rugby, routed 'WMR & LNR ONLY'.

The only services which call at North Wembley are operated by London Overground and London Underground. West Midlands Trains does not serve the station at all.

Imagining a passenger who goes to a TVM and buys this ticket (and hence is not stopped from doing this by an online TIS, or a booking office clerk, both of which would hopefully realise the problem), what rights do they have?

Do LO/LU have an obligation to carry them, notwithstanding the fact that the ticket's TOC restriction would ordinarily prevent travel on their services? Is the ticket simply null and void for the fact that it doesn't actually let you travel at all (since, legally speaking, it would appear you can't even start the journey), and hence offers no consideration?

Would the passenger be liable to a Penalty Fare, or prosecution under the relevant Railway Byelaw (if travelling on LO/LU)? Would a guard or RPI coming across this passenger have the right to require them to buy a new ticket, presumably being the undiscounted Off-Peak Single route 'NOT VIA LONDON' at £43.60 (or potentially the Anytime Single at £64.50, or slightly higher fares if travelling via London)?

Would it be any different if the passenger had a route restricted ticket, where, due to the nature of the route of timetables services, there is no way of complying with the route restriction without travelling on a non-permitted route, or on a different route that has a higher fare? Would the passenger be liable to pay for a new ticket to cover the non-permitted part, or for a change of route excess if travelling on a route that has a specific, higher route?

Does any of the above change if it is possible to comply with the route or TOC restrictions on some days but not others (e.g. in the case of specific routes or stations which have once-a-week services)? Does the validity of the ticket then depend on the day on which it is purchased?

I'd be interested in your thoughts and opinions. I have chosen the example carefully as I am aware it is likely to be removed now that it is 'publicised' here (and there is no great loss if this happens); however there are numerous other cases where the journey can also either not be started or finished, or indeed not be undertaken at all, because of a route or TOC restriction.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I’ve never yet got a TVM to issue a ticket that isn’t valid in this context. But I haven’t tried this one!
An online journey planner doesn’t offer it.
Your only option is to try buying one elsewhere from a ticket office & hoping no one notices! But if it is suppressed in the online system, the chances are it will at the very least have a warning message.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I’ve never yet got a TVM to issue a ticket that isn’t valid in this context. But I haven’t tried this one!
An online journey planner doesn’t offer it.
Your only option is to try buying one elsewhere from a ticket office & hoping no one notices! But if it is suppressed in the online system, the chances are it will at the very least have a warning message.

Unless it is one of the limited number of TVMs that require you to generate an itinerary to sell a ticket (e.g. LNER's TVMs), you will be able to buy any ticket on any route (OK yes, there are exceptions such as Advances and most rovers!). In most cases, the TVM is simply a dumbed down version of what they use in the ticket office.

Obviously I am considering both the case of someone who knowingly buys a ticket that they know cannot be 'officially' used, as well as the ordinary 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' passenger who doesn't realise the problem (perhaps because they don't travel on trains, or long-distance services at least, very often).

 

[Silverdale]

There is a reason why TOC specific tickets should exist, even if the origin isn't served by the specific TOC.

If I hold a season ticket from North Wembley to London Victoria or Waterloo via Kensington Olympia and want to travel from e.g. Kensington Olympia to Rugby, I could buy the North Wembley to Rugby Super Off-Peak single referred to. I can use the LNR/WMR TOC only ticket, regardless of the fact that no LNR/WMR trains stop at North Wembley. I would change trains at Wembley Central and use LNR/WMR services via Watford, passing through North Wembley.

The alternatives of either using a non TOC specific ticket from North Wembley, or a ticket from Wembley Central (there is no Super Off-Peak) all appear to be more expensive.

 

[cuccir]

I don't think there's a set procedure that would be followed, given that the rules were not written with impossible-to-use tickets in mind!

Condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel states

12. The Train Company or Companies you may travel with
12.1. Some Tickets require you to travel on a specific train service or services, or the services of a particular Train Company or Companies. This will be made clear to you when you purchase your Ticket.
12.2. Otherwise, you are allowed to make your journey on the services of any Train Company covering the journey you are making on the date(s) and by the route(s) on which your Ticket is valid.

It depends what we think the 'otherwise' incorporates. Arguably, otherwise could be understood to mean that you are able to complete the journey on any train company, when the specific services aren't available. If so, then case closed. If not, then I think that it's more complex. There are two different types of tickets under discussion here:

Impossible to use tickets
I suspect that if someone purchased this ticket and used other train operators, then yes they'd be opening themselves up to being asked to pay a penalty fare, or investigation for prosecution. Hopefully, the passenger would then be able to explain that it was impossible to use this ticket as directed, and one of three things happen: no further action is taken; the passenger is given the opportunity to pay an excess to a relevant ticket valid for the service that they're using; they are issued a penalty fare which they successfully appeal. Subsequently, the incident results in the ticket being withdrawn from sale.

A fourth, wackier outcome would be London Overground/Underground refusing to convey the passenger, requiring West Midland Trains to find alternative transport ie a taxi, either to Rugby or to an apprpriate station (Eg Wembley Central). This would fit with cases such as Newhaven Marine, whereby passengers had a right to a taxi at the time of the timetabled service.

Occasionally impossible to use tickets
There's never been an understanding that as a passenger has a right to show up and demand a service immediately between two stations. So if (for example) I buy a ticket to Kirton Lindsey (served on a Saturday only) and set off on a Monday morning, I think the TOC has a right to say to me when I get to Retford to change trains that there is no service that day and that they have no further obligations to me. They have fulfilled the obligation of making train times available to me (the NRCOT don't say where they have to be available, so online is fine) and my journey is not delayed by disruption. It might be a TOC would offer a genuine confused passenger a taxi, or endorse it to travel to Gainsborough Lea Road, if they felt some sympathy!

 

[Kite159]

Maybe it is worth a London based member who lives near the Wembley area to head to North Wembley to see if the TVM will bring up that ticket for sale? Just to see if it is possible to purchase from the machine.

Could that ticket be a left-over from the days of Silverlink?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It depends what we think the 'otherwise' incorporates. Arguably, otherwise could be understood to mean that you are able to complete the journey on any train company, when the specific services aren't available. If so, then case closed. If not, then I think that it's more complex. There are two different types of tickets under discussion here:

Indeed, I would like to hope that restrictions on the route(s) or company/ies permitted would be lifted when it becomes obvious that otherwise the ticket would effectively be worth nought. But then again this is the rail industry we're talking about....

Impossible to use tickets
I suspect that if someone purchased this ticket and used other train operators, then yes they'd be opening themselves up to being asked to pay a penalty fare, or investigation for prosecution. Hopefully, the passenger would then be able to explain that it was impossible to use this ticket as directed, and one of three things happen: no further action is taken; the passenger is given the opportunity to pay an excess to a relevant ticket valid for the service that they're using; they are issued a penalty fare which they successfully appeal. Subsequently, the incident results in the ticket being withdrawn from sale.

A fourth, wackier outcome would be London Overground/Underground refusing to convey the passenger, requiring West Midland Trains to find alternative transport ie a taxi, either to Rugby or to an apprpriate station (Eg Wembley Central). This would fit with cases such as Newhaven Marine, whereby passengers had a right to a taxi at the time of the timetabled service.

Quite obviously a RoRA prosecution would fail, since it would be impossible to claim that the passenger had intent to avoid any fare which they could not use!

It would then be a question of whether or not the ticket was actually valid, if the restrictions made it impossible to use.

Occasionally impossible to use tickets
There's never been an understanding that as a passenger has a right to show up and demand a service immediately between two stations. So if (for example) I buy a ticket to Kirton Lindsey (served on a Saturday only) and set off on a Monday morning, I think the TOC has a right to say to me when I get to Retford to change trains that there is no service that day and that they have no further obligations to me. They have fulfilled the obligation of making train times available to me (the NRCOT don't say where they have to be available, so online is fine) and my journey is not delayed by disruption. It might be a TOC would offer a genuine confused passenger a taxi, or endorse it to travel to Gainsborough Lea Road, if they felt some sympathy!

Should a ticket even be sold at a time or date when it is impossible to complete? Again, this is primarily an issue for TVMs - online, the integrated timetable will prevent the sale of unusable fares, and at the ticket office one would hope an unusable ticket would not be sold. Should all TVMs be made to be updated with LNER-style software to ensure that it is actually possible to complete the ticketed journey via a permitted route (taking into account any route/TOC restrictions)?

I think a similar sort of thing applies to when various operators are, unusually, not operating a service at all (e.g. Northern strikes where they are not providing alternative transport).

Overall I'm minded to say that tickets such as these either should not be sold - or if they are, however it happens, sold, they should be accepted, ignoring any restrictions that are impossible to comply with.

 

[Silverdale]

Should a ticket even be sold at a time or date when it is impossible to complete?

Are we still talking about the North Wembley ticket? Because that is possible to use in combination with a season. If I want to use the ticket in that way, why should I be restricted to only being able to purchase it from a ticket office?

 

[Haywain]

Could that ticket be a left-over from the days of Silverlink?

Possibly, but more likely to be a consequence of fare clusters where a fare from Wembley Central is also available from a range of other stations nearby.

Should all TVMs be made to be updated with LNER-style software to ensure that it is actually possible to complete the ticketed journey via a permitted route (taking into account any route/TOC restrictions)?

Not until a much improved version of that software is available. Currently, there are too many shortcomings that result from trying to put web-type software onto a TVM.

 

[gray1404]

These ticket could still be used if starting or finishing short on the ticket. Subject to any restrictions on the outward portion. Of course, one could just use the return portion. It depends on the ticket in question and if this is worth doing.

 

[Silverdale]

Possibly, but more likely to be a consequence of fare clusters where a fare from Wembley Central is also available from a range of other stations nearby.

Not in this case. There is no Super-Off Peak fare from Wembley Central.

Not until a much improved version of that software is available. Currently, there are too many shortcomings that result from trying to put web-type software onto a TVM.

The aim should be to make sure, as far as is possible, that a customer doesn't purchase a ticket from a TVM which they can't use as intended, not just tickets that they can't use at all. The difficulty is properly capturing the customer's intentions which may not be obvious. Having done that it should be relatively straight forward to only offer the relevant tickets.

 

[Haywain]

Not in this case. There is no Super-Off Peak fare from Wembley Central.

I got my clusters wrong - there is one from Harrow & Wealdstone in the same cluster!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Are we still talking about the North Wembley ticket? Because that is possible to use in combination with a season. If I want to use the ticket in that way, why should I be restricted to only being able to purchase it from a ticket office?

Well, it is possible to combine almost ticket with a season ticket to make it usable where it otherwise would not be. But I am talking about the average walk-up punter who doesn't already have a season ticket.

 

[Silverdale]

But I am talking about the average walk-up punter who doesn't already have a season ticket.

I understand that, but your proposed solutions to the problem of the walk-up punter purchasing an unusable ticket, were to deny the season holder the possibility of purchasing it, either at TVM, or at all.

 

[PeterC]

As a layman, if I could get this ticket from a London Overground ATM, I would expect them to convey me to the first interchange point with the TOC on which the ticket was stated as valid.

 

[Silverdale]

If rail ticket validity was on the basis of 'what the layman expects', there would be far fewer disputes.

 

[infobleep]

If rail ticket validity was on the basis of 'what the layman expects', there would be far fewer disputes.

What happens when different layman expect different things?

 

[Silverdale]

What happens when different layman expect different things?

I wasn't actually suggesting that validity could or should be on that basis.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Not in this case. There is no Super-Off Peak fare from Wembley Central.


The aim should be to make sure, as far as is possible, that a customer doesn't purchase a ticket from a TVM which they can't use as intended, not just tickets that they can't use at all. The difficulty is properly capturing the customer's intentions which may not be obvious. Having done that it should be relatively straight forward to only offer the relevant tickets.

They could start by not allowing tickets dated that day to be sold when there are no trains running from the starting station at all on that day. (Valleys line in Wales has no trains on Sundays. Only discovered this after buying from the TVM.) Wasn’t able to get a refund either.

 

[Haywain]

They could start by not allowing tickets dated that day to be sold when there are no trains running from the starting station at all on that day. (Valleys line in Wales has no trains on Sundays. Only discovered this after buying from the TVM.) Wasn’t able to get a refund either.

Very difficult without a journey planning element, and could prevent tickets being sold that can be used for most of their journey.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Very difficult without a journey planning element, and could prevent tickets being sold that can be used for most of their journey.

This particular instance was for a single journey from a station on the Valleys line to Cardiff Central. It couldn’t be used at all that day... it shouldn’t be difficult for the TVM to refuse to sell a ticket like that?

 

[Haywain]

This particular instance was for a single journey from a station on the Valleys line to Cardiff Central. It couldn’t be used at all that day... it shouldn’t be difficult for the TVM to refuse to sell a ticket like that?

But a return from a Valleys station to London could be used to start from Cardiff and later make the return trip right through. Not the most likely scenario but an example of how problems can arise by restricting sales.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

But a return from a Valleys station to London could be used to start from Cardiff and later make the return trip right through. Not the most likely scenario but an example of how problems can arise by restricting sales.

I didn’t think of that. Point taken that a blanket block wouldn’t work.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

At the very least, I think a warning that the journey cannot be completed within the ticket's validity should be given, which must explicitly be signed on-screen (as it's a touchscreen) before the ticket is sold.

If no such warning is given, I am minded to think that the passenger is entitled to travel on the next available itinerary (without any break of journey), even if that puts them beyond the date-wise 'validity' of their ticket. Otherwise what exactly has the passenger paid for?!

 

[PeterC]

I wasn't actually suggesting that validity could or should be on that basis.

But the question was asked "what would the average punter expect".

 

[cuccir]

If no such warning is given, I am minded to think that the passenger is entitled to travel on the next available itinerary (without any break of journey), even if that puts them beyond the date-wise 'validity' of their ticket. Otherwise what exactly has the passenger paid for?!

At the heart of this question is the issue of what information passengers should be given before buying a ticket, and where that information should be. The National Rail Conditions of Travel isn't overly precise about it:

We will help you plan your journey on the National Rail Network by making available information on train times, the range of Tickets available for you to purchase, the stations you might use and other relevant information such as refund and compensation arrangements....When purchasing your Ticket, we will make available information on specific restrictions that apply to your Ticket (for instance the train services on which you can use your Ticket or the route(s) you are entitled to use) and, where possible, any known changes to planned services

All that information is readily available online of course, so this doesn't really get us any further when dealing with someone buying a ticket at a TVM, particularly at an unstaffed station. I'm minded of the availability of the bypass plans in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy too

But we shouldn't pretend that buying at a ticket office solves all these issues. This case of the two Milbrooks indicates that - there are thousands of stations, spread over the country, and mistakes or gaps in knowledge will be there: would someone selling a ticket at Halifax know on a Sunday not to sell an Anytime Day Single to Chathill, for example? Can we believe that no-one's ever accidentally been sold a ticket to Dalston (Cumbria) rather than Dalton (Cumbria), or vice versa?

For me, I think enough information is generally provided for people to make the right purchases. I think that passengers travelling long-distance should expect to have to consult a journey planner, or timetable, or whatever. This is not a tested principle in court and it's not to say that every single purchasing platform or TVM provides enough information.

What we hope is that regardless of the law, railway staff will use the discretion that they're empowered to use, where clear mistakes have been made. This happened to a friend in the summer: he was attending a wedding in Hythe, Kent, and was somewhat surprised to find himself in Colchester after buying a ticket to and travelling to the Hythe station in Essex. Ignoring for a minute the bizarrely poor geographical knowledge that this indicates, a member of staff used their discretion to endorse his ticket (he had come from Durham so it wasn't cheap) for travel to Hythe in Kent. OK so somewhere along the way a small amount of revenue has gone to the wrong train company, but this is clearly the customer-friendly thing to do given that it is unlikely that many people will make this mistake.

 

[clagmonster]

But a return from a Valleys station to London could be used to start from Cardiff and later make the return trip right through. Not the most likely scenario but an example of how problems can arise by restricting sales.

It could, but if starting short, presumably with the intention of returning to the Valleys station on the return portion, the passenger could surely obtain the ticket when starting in Cardiff. I wonder in the case of stations that are closed on one or more days of the week, whether the solution could just be to turn off the TVM, or set them to collection only, when there is no service to obtain a ticket for.

Of course, this does not deal with the issue of preventing accidental issue of tickets to unserved stations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It could, but if starting short, presumably with the intention of returning to the Valleys station on the return portion, the passenger could surely obtain the ticket when starting in Cardiff. I wonder in the case of stations that are closed on one or more days of the week, whether the solution could just be to turn off the TVM, or set them to collection only, when there is no service to obtain a ticket for.

Of course, this does not deal with the issue of preventing accidental issue of tickets to unserved stations.

That would make a great deal of sense to me - even if the machines are 'only' set to collection-only because of fears that the machine might not restart properly if they are shut down!

 

[tiptoptaff]

They could start by not allowing tickets dated that day to be sold when there are no trains running from the starting station at all on that day. (Valleys line in Wales has no trains on Sundays. Only discovered this after buying from the TVM.) Wasn’t able to get a refund either.

The Valley Lines run 7 days a week - was there a replacement bus upon which your ticket would have been valid?

 

[Silverdale]

I wonder in the case of stations that are closed on one or more days of the week, whether the solution could just be to turn off the TVM, or set them to collection only, when there is no service to obtain a ticket for.

So, a customer could buy a ticket for future travel online and collect it from the TVM (for a fee, depending on the retailer), but couldn't buy the same ticket directly from the machine itself?

These are sledge hammer solutions. How big is the nut?