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Tickets wrongly confiscated

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danm14

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I purchased an Off Peak Day Return ticket from Liverpool Stations to Warrington Stations. I travelled to Warrington this morning, and returned around two hours ago.

As my ticket was an Off Peak ticket, break of journey on either portion should be permitted, and as the ticket was to Liverpool Stations it should have been valid to Lime St, Central, James St or Moorfields.

I alighted the train at James St, and showed the ticket to the man at the barrier (it refused to open the gate, probably as I had stored it with my mobile phone for two days). He confiscated the ticket and refused to give me a receipt. He also refused to return it when asked. He told me "it's not a day ticket mate, you can't go round again, once you get off at a Liverpool Station it's gone" when I explained that I was breaking my journey at James Street and travelling onwards to Moorfields. His colleague also backed him up.

Was the barrier attendant in the right, or was I? (National Rail told me to phone who I bought the ticket off (Northern) who confirmed I was in the right. Merseyrail staff at Lime Street also confirmed this)

Is there anything can be done?
 
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Merseysider

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Assuming you went:

Warrington Central/WBQ - Lime St - James St, or
Warrington Central - South Parkway - Liverpool Central - James St;

then you certainly could continue onward to Moorfields on the loop line.

I'd start by emailing Merseyrail.
 
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Quakkerillo

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I'm trying to understand what happened here. You went to Warrington, and came back. Probably changed at Lime Street, left at James Street, and later wanted to go to James Street to go to Moorfields, which is a 7 minute, 625m/.4mi walk?

I can in such a case certainly understand why staff would be reluctant to see that as a 'break of journey', even if - by technicality - you would claim it is possible.

As for the confiscation, I think he acted as if he were a ticket barrier, which would also have swallowed your ticket. Because as far as he was concerned, the ticket 'ended' right there and then. Next time, on a similar non-obvious BOJ, you could also say you need to keep the ticket to claim for work expenses, or even delay repay.

This doesn't solve whether or not it's in any way 'okay' for him to have confiscated without notice, but I think it's a generally more accepted excuse to keep the ticket, despite having travelled.
 

Merseysider

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Yes. I've never once had a request to retain my ticket rejected when mentioning expenses or reimbursement.
 

danm14

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I'm trying to understand what happened here. You went to Warrington, and came back. Probably changed at Lime Street, left at James Street, and later wanted to go to James Street to go to Moorfields, which is a 7 minute, 625m/.4mi walk?

I can in such a case certainly understand why staff would be reluctant to see that as a 'break of journey', even if - by technicality - you would claim it is possible.

As for the confiscation, I think he acted as if he were a ticket barrier, which would also have swallowed your ticket. Because as far as he was concerned, the ticket 'ended' right there and then. Next time, on a similar non-obvious BOJ, you could also say you need to keep the ticket to claim for work expenses, or even delay repay.

This doesn't solve whether or not it's in any way 'okay' for him to have confiscated without notice, but I think it's a generally more accepted excuse to keep the ticket, despite having travelled.

It's a ½ mile walk, granted, but it was starting to rain, and with the luggage I was retrieving, I'd rather have taken the train (which I should have been entitled to for no extra charge)
 

yorkie

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Based on the information provided, the ticket was still valid to continue to Moorfields, so you have a valid complaint to Merseyrail.

This sort of behaviour is my biggest concern with gatelines; the staff at some gatelines do seem to have a habit of inventing rules and restrictions that do not exist.
....I think he acted as if he were a ticket barrier, which would also have swallowed your ticket.....
Ticket barriers should not swallow tickets that have further validity, and all good ticket barriers do not (e.g. at London Waterloo; you can continue to Charing Cross/London Bridge etc)
 

sheff1

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Next time, on a similar non-obvious BOJ, you could also say you need to keep the ticket to claim for work expenses, or even delay repay.

You are suggesting that a passenger lie to staff because the staff may not understand a very simple condition attached to a ticket ?
 

danm14

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I'm trying to understand what happened here. You went to Warrington, and came back. Probably changed at Lime Street, left at James Street, and later wanted to go to James Street to go to Moorfields, which is a 7 minute, 625m/.4mi walk?

I completely understand that this is not what you're suggesting, I mean this for discussion and don't intend to belittle your valid point. Does this not raise a question of "How much of a rail journey can staff refuse to allow you to undertake because it's close enough to walk?" though?

If I was travelling up from the Wirral and was asked to leave the train at James Street by the guard because "it's only a short walk" despite intending to travel to Moorfields, it'd be a clear cut "guard was in the wrong".

If I'd asked for "a single to Moorfields please" at James Street, they may have pointed out the short walk but would have sold me a ticket if I requested it.

To completely take the mick if I bought a day ticket I could legitimately spend 18 hours travelling round and round and round the loop line despite never being more than 15 minutes walk from any of the four stations. I'd understandably probably be removed from the railway or questioned for suspicious behaviour but in terms of my ticket I'd be in the right.

If he was worried about me potentially travelling round to Lime Street or Central, or using it like a day ticket, perhaps he could have marked the ticket in some way, endorsed the ticket "exited at James Street" or similar", punched a hole through the magnetic strip, etc, etc.
 

danm14

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Ticket barriers should not swallow tickets that have further validity, and all good ticket barriers do not (e.g. at London Waterloo; you can continue to Charing Cross/London Bridge etc)

I believe Merseyrail ticket barriers do not swallow tickets, full stop. This was confirmed by another poster on here at some stage a few years ago. I believe he said it was because there are too many conditions where they can't be swallowed (almost all mainline tickets are valid on the "underground" being the main one)

This was also anecdotally confirmed to still be the case by myself after several tickets, both singles and returns between the four stations in both directions were returned despite clearly having no validity (this was before I became aware of Saveaway tickets and the short walk between the various stations)

As an very regular user (in Ireland) and fan of rail travel I wanted to keep the ticket for my first rail journey in Britain, I remember looking up a way to avoid having my ticket swallowed and this is where I found the post regarding Merseyrail barriers - for the record I would have liked to keep my ticket from today's journey too but it's too late now I assume.
 
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6Gman

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Shouldn't a Lime Street to Moorfields journey be via Central rather than via James Street?

That aside, the barrier staff on Merseyrail do tend to have some odd views. I've had a Crewe - Liverpool Stations ticket refused at Central for a journey to James Street for example.
 

danm14

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Shouldn't a Lime Street to Moorfields journey be via Central rather than via James Street?

1 mile and 8 chains vs 1 mile and 22 chains. Perhaps this is unenforced as staff do advise changing at James Street and it's much easier and quicker than changing at Central. Or does the three mile rule apply here?

Update: National Rail journey planner shows switching at James Street as a valid itinerary, so it should be valid.
 
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gray1404

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Defiantly complain to Merseyrail. Your complaint was valid and I would expect them to issue compensation too.
 

Merseysider

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danm14 said:
I believe Merseyrail ticket barriers do not swallow tickets, full stop.
They do.

I commute from Birkenhead via Liverpool and the barriers at Lime Street (Lower), Central and James Street will retain a ticket to Liverpool Stations.

The barriers at Conway Park will always retain a ticket to Conway Park or Birkenhead Central.

I haven't exited recently at Moorfields so cannot comment there.

Northern's barriers at Lime Street (Upper) correctly return tickets to Liverpool Stations, for use on the Merseyrail loop.
 
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danm14

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I commute from Birkenhead via Liverpool and the barriers at Lime Street (Lower), Central and James Street will retain a ticket to Liverpool Stations.

That's interesting. They're (based on my anecdotal evidence) returning tickets specifically to that station with guaranteed no other validity, but (based on your anecdotal evidence) swallowing tickets to the group with additional validity for break of journey. Could they have been programmed the wrong way round, if that makes any sense?
 

danm14

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Defiantly complain to Merseyrail. Your complaint was valid and I would expect them to issue compensation too.

With no proof of this happening or even that I had a ticket I'd say that's very unlikely (first half of ticket was lost somewhere, second half was confiscated with no receipt)
 

gray1404

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With no proof of this happening or even that I had a ticket I'd say that's very unlikely (first half of ticket was lost somewhere, second half was confiscated with no receipt)

You should still complain though. Merseyrail have the proof, they have your ticket already :p
 

bb21

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Shouldn't a Lime Street to Moorfields journey be via Central rather than via James Street?

Both perfectly fine.

You should still complain though. Merseyrail have the proof, they have your ticket already :p

Don't be silly. That's not proof.

The OP can however supply a copy of his bank statement and/or booking confirmation if available for evidence.

If Merseyrail were on the ball, they would issue staff reminders, and speak to relevant personnel.

They may issue some compensation as a goodwill gesture, but I wouldn't be surprised in such a case if they didn't and simply offered an apology.

I completely understand that this is not what you're suggesting, I mean this for discussion and don't intend to belittle your valid point. Does this not raise a question of "How much of a rail journey can staff refuse to allow you to undertake because it's close enough to walk?" though?

The answer is "none". If the ticket is still valid for further travel and the customer requires it, it must not be collected. There is no grey area over this matter.

To completely take the mick if I bought a day ticket I could legitimately spend 18 hours travelling round and round and round the loop line despite never being more than 15 minutes walk from any of the four stations. I'd understandably probably be removed from the railway or questioned for suspicious behaviour but in terms of my ticket I'd be in the right.

I'd have put you on "suicide watch" if you were at my station. :lol:

If he was worried about me potentially travelling round to Lime Street or Central, or using it like a day ticket, perhaps he could have marked the ticket in some way, endorsed the ticket "exited at James Street" or similar", punched a hole through the magnetic strip, etc, etc.

Absolutely. An endorsement on the ticket is the way to go.

(There are other things which can help flag potential suspicions of fraudulent travel although I won't say this out loud as last time it was mentioned lots of self-righteous people jumped on it despite not knowing much about revenue protection.)

The customer must not be denied legitimate travel they paid for or unduly inconvenienced.
 

gray1404

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Definitely complain even if no proof of travel. Merseyrail still have a duty to investigate it. The staff concerned may remember the incident (not all will deny it) and it allows Merseyrail to carry out their duty in ensuring all staff are trained correctly.
 

danm14

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Today I received a reply from Merseyrail (attached) plus compensation in the form of a £5 rail travel voucher. Not a bad outcome, nice to see they've actually accepted that the event happened and even better to see they've compensated me for it despite the lack of proof.
 

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yorkie

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Yes, they have accepted the staff were wrong and put appropriate measures in place.

It is refreshing for a train company to give a good response first time also.
 
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