TIL claim for unpaid fare

[NelsonPK]

Can someone help - I may need a lawyer!

I travel regularly (circa twice a month) from Ashchurch to Birmingham New St. Depending on the time of day this is either direct or via Cheltenham. Most commonly I use the 11.24am service via Cheltenham which gives me 6 minutes to change platforms.
There is no ticket office at Ashchurch so I purchase my ticket on the train. I have a Senior Railcard that entitles me to a 30% discount. Usually I buy this from the train manager on the Ashchurch to Cheltenham stage but sometimes he or she does not appear so I purchase my ticket on the Cheltenham to New St leg. It has never been a problem and the senior railcard is always accepted.

On an occasion in November I sought to buy my ticket on the Cheltenham to New St leg but the train manager would not accept the Senior Railcard. She advised that this can only be used when purchasing a ticket at the station. She insisted I paid the full fair. I refused to accept this and advised that it has always been accepted in the past and even if I had known there is not normally time to go to the ticket office in Cheltenham anyway. An argument ensued resulting in her issuing me with a "0.00 payment ticket" so that I could get through the barriers at New St and that someone would write to me.

Since then I have been in correspondence with TIL who do not accept my story and say that all the evidence suggest that I simply refused to pay. It feels like the train manager has been questioned as is not telling the full story. They offered to accept payment to them but only at the full price £26 and again would not accept the Senior railcard discount.

So now they have written to me again (after 3 months silence) requesting payment of £92 or I will be prosecuted by court proceedings for non payment of fair.

For me this is a point of principle and every train manager I have subsequently spoken with has advised that the Senior Railcard is valid when purchased on a train.

Should I continue to dig my heels in and what are my chances at court? I don't want a criminal record!!

Any advice is welcome.

Nelson

 

[221129]

What ticket did you ask for? Was it an Ashchurch to Birmingham ticket or a Cheltenham to Birmingham ticket? Or both?

 

[clagmonster]

The National Conditions of Travel state:
"6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares;
...
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed. "

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

Clearly, if there is insufficient time to reach the booking office at Cheltenham, then you are not reasonably able to pay your fare at that point, so your first reasonable opportunity is the guard on the train north from Cheltenham. Indeed, whilst information boxes are not binding, the following information box backs up this view:
"INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there issufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination."

I would write back to TIL pointing out these facts, that you are contractually entitled to buy on board in these circumstances.

 

[221129]

I would write back to TIL pointing out these facts, that you are contractually entitled to buy on board in these circumstances

I dont think it's quite as clear cut as that. An answer to the question in post 2 is needed before we can say for sure.

 

[clagmonster]

I dont think it's quite as clear cut as that. An answer to the question in post 2 is needed before we can say for sure.

I agree that if a Cheltenham - Birmingham ticket was requested instead of one from Ashchurch then it is a clear case of avoiding the fare due. However, given the circumstances described, including many guards retailing the ticket requested, I think it unlikely however it is a case I had not considered. The clarification is needed for certain.

 

[Realfish]

This is from the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which set out your and the train operators obligations;

PART C: Planning your journey and buying your Ticket
6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey....
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

If the circumstances are as stated, and there was not time to purchase your ticket in Cheltenham, the Train Manager was wrong not to have applied the discount, as others have done previously. Obviously she has reported you for refusing to pay the fare and TIL have got involved. TIL have a reputation for threatening prosecution but offering to settle, often for fairly substantial sums of money. It would be interesting to know, therefore, why TIL initially offered to simply accept payment of the fare from you, albeit without the Senior Railcard discount. I speculate that that might because they know that Cross Country had got it wrong.

Someone will be along shortly to offer more advice, I suspect on the issue of standing your ground and refusing to purchase the ticket at the time.

Some other questions: The National Rail site says that Ashchurch does not have a ticket machine, is this still the case? And, presumably the TM on the first leg from Ashchurch, did not emerge to sell you a ticket for the full journey?

[Edit: Drafted while posts 2&3 were being posted]

 

[221129]

The other thing to bare in mind is that by refusing to purchase the possibly incorrect ticket then it could potentially be argued that you have committed an offence, only a court would be able to determine that though.

 

[cactustwirly]

The other thing to bare in mind is that by refusing to purchase the possibly incorrect ticket then it could potentially be argued that you have committed an offence, only a court would be able to determine that though.

No it can't, there is no offence that could be commited, the legislation states that the offence doesn't apply where there are not ticketing facilities at the origin station.
Even then the wording in the NRCoT is explicit in this, and that is a legally binding contract.

 

[Realfish]

No it can't, there is no offence that could be commited, the legislation states that the offence doesn't apply where there are not ticketing facilities at the origin station.
Even then the wording in the NRCoT is explicit in this, and that is a legally binding contract.

That's true, but the OP was subsequently given the opportunity purchase a ticket but refused. It might be argued that he therefore avoided his fare and still is as the fare is still outstanding. The Conditions of Travel state; ''In these cases (where there are no ticketing facilities), you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey''.

That said, the phrase 'appropriate ticket' is instructive. The 'appropriate ticket' or proper ticket, was the discounted one, which the TM refused to sell*. So who was in the wrong? Should the OP have been required to purchase the ticket and then seek a refund from X-Country Customer Services?

Yes, strictly speaking there was a refusal to purchase and a potential offence may have been committed at that stage, but in the circumstances, TIL and Cross Country, in my view would be acting wholly unreasonably in attempting to proceed with a prosecution.

*If the facts are as described

 

[NelsonPK]

Thank you all for your advice. I can only say that the facts were as described but maybe a few nuances. Firstly I am convinced the TM was having a bad day and had it in her head that I was requesting a ticket from Cheltenham and then refused to accept that I had boarded at Ashchurch even when I advised that there is no ticket office (or machine) at Ashchurch. Secondly I offered to purchase a ticket at New St Station but she did not accept that alternative. The 0.00 payment ticket she issued me with states from Cheltenham not Ashchurch but I only realised that after she had issued it to me and shortly after I had reached my destination. So my weakness could be that I inadvertently accepted a 0.00 payment ticket (I had never seen one of these before).

All these points have been stressed to TIL who are not accepting my argument. Also my wife will testify that I boarded the train at Ashchurch as she is the one who regularly drives and collects from there. It is the nearest station to where I live and I have kept countless other tickets for this same journey to prove that it was not a one off.

Nelson

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all for your advice. I can only say that the facts were as described but maybe a few nuances. Firstly I am convinced the TM was having a bad day and had it in her head that I was requesting a ticket from Cheltenham and then refused to accept that I had boarded at Ashchurch even when I advised that there is no ticket office (or machine) at Ashchurch. Secondly I offered to purchase a ticket at New St Station but she did not accept that alternative. The 0.00 payment ticket she issued me with states from Cheltenham not Ashchurch but I only realised that after she had issued it to me and shortly after I had reached my destination. So my weakness could be that I inadvertently accepted a 0.00 payment ticket (I had never seen one of these before).

All these points have been stressed to TIL who are not accepting my argument. Also my wife will testify that I boarded the train at Ashchurch as she is the one who regularly drives and collects from there. It is the nearest station to where I live and I have kept countless other tickets for this same journey to prove that it was not a one off.

Nelson

I think you should continue to press this with TIL and copy it to Cross Country Trains (XC Trains) - including stressing that you made it clear to the onboard staff you commenced your journey at Ashchurch but that the TM issued you (a mistake on her part) with a document that implied you commenced your journey at Chltenham which was not what you stated to her. You could even mention that you were given no opportunity to correct it (if true eg that is not a lie if the staff member did not tell you to check the paperwork she was giving you for example).

It sounds to me like you could let them take you to court and they would loose but more likely their prosecutor MIGHT wirthdraw 'on the day' - but that is a risk to you

So I would
a) write back as suggested above by clagmonster to TIL / XC trains
b) seek to involve Transport Focus (watchdog) by copying it all to them with a covering letter asking them to intervene
c) copy all of that to your MP asking them to support your case by raising it with XC trains

Make it clear you are very happy to pay the sum you owe (the fare from Ashchurch to Brum discounted with a railcard) people on here can tell you what that fare is if you are not sure. Some other cases people suggest you enclose it as a cheque to cross country along with your letter to them stating why they are wrong and requesting they instruct TIL to cease their threats of prosecution.

If you wish you can post your draught letters for all these on here for people to check / suggest amends.

Good luck sorting this - it seems to me you are being unfairly treated. Sadly XC trains staff seem to have a few poorly trained staff these days, if all is as you have presented it.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think you should continue to press this with TIL and copy it to Cross Country Trains (XC Trains) - including stressing that you made it clear to the onboard staff you commenced your journey at Ashchurch but that the TM issued you (a mistake on her part) with a document that implied you commenced your journey at Chltenham which was not what you stated to her. You could even mention that you were given no opportunity to correct it (if true eg that is not a lie if the staff member did not tell you to check the paperwork she was giving you for example).

It sounds to me like you could let them take you to court and they would loose but more likely their prosecutor MIGHT wirthdraw 'on the day' - but that is a risk to you

So I would
a) write back as suggested above by clagmonster to TIL / XC trains
b) seek to involve Transport Focus (watchdog) by copying it all to them with a covering letter asking them to intervene
c) copy all of that to your MP asking them to support your case by raising it with XC trains

Make it clear you are very happy to pay the sum you owe (the fare from Ashchurch to Brum discounted with a railcard) people on here can tell you what that fare is if you are not sure. Some other cases people suggest you enclose it as a cheque to cross country along with your letter to them stating why they are wrong and requesting they instruct TIL to cease their threats of prosecution.

If you wish you can post your draught letters for all these on here for people to check / suggest amends.

Good luck sorting this - it seems to me you are being unfairly treated. Sadly XC trains staff seem to have a few poorly trained staff these days, if all is as you have presented it.

Exactly this, if it does reach court, you would be able to argue that there is no case to answer.
Since the onus is on XC/TIL to prove that you boarded a train without a valid ticket (beyone reasonable doubt), and that there was a suitable opportunity to pay (working ticket facilities at the origin).
They have no evidence, except the word of a TM, which is very weak evidence tbh.

 

[island]

Cheltenham Spa is not a large station, and the route to change trains takes you past the booking office. Is there a particular reason you didn't buy your ticket at that time?

 

[NelsonPK]

Cheltenham Spa is not a large station, and the route to change trains takes you past the booking office. Is there a particular reason you didn't buy your ticket at that time?

Thank you island you are right but at the time I was not aware that I was required to buy a ticket at the ticket office when for the past 30 years I have always bought my ticket on the train for this particular journey.
Nelson

 

[NelsonPK]

I think you should continue to press this with TIL and copy it to Cross Country Trains (XC Trains) - including stressing that you made it clear to the onboard staff you commenced your journey at Ashchurch but that the TM issued you (a mistake on her part) with a document that implied you commenced your journey at Chltenham which was not what you stated to her. You could even mention that you were given no opportunity to correct it (if true eg that is not a lie if the staff member did not tell you to check the paperwork she was giving you for example).

It sounds to me like you could let them take you to court and they would loose but more likely their prosecutor MIGHT wirthdraw 'on the day' - but that is a risk to you

So I would
a) write back as suggested above by clagmonster to TIL / XC trains
b) seek to involve Transport Focus (watchdog) by copying it all to them with a covering letter asking them to intervene
c) copy all of that to your MP asking them to support your case by raising it with XC trains

Make it clear you are very happy to pay the sum you owe (the fare from Ashchurch to Brum discounted with a railcard) people on here can tell you what that fare is if you are not sure. Some other cases people suggest you enclose it as a cheque to cross country along with your letter to them stating why they are wrong and requesting they instruct TIL to cease their threats of prosecution.

If you wish you can post your draught letters for all these on here for people to check / suggest amends.

Good luck sorting this - it seems to me you are being unfairly treated. Sadly XC trains staff seem to have a few poorly trained staff these days, if all is as you have presented it.

Thank you this is sound advice and I will do as you suggest especially copying in XC trains. Appreciate the advice.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thank you island you are right but at the time I was not aware that I was required to buy a ticket at the ticket office when for the past 30 years I have always bought my ticket on the train for this particular journey.
Nelson

This is potentially a weakness in your case. If you had adequate time to purchase a ticket then you should have done, and regardless of what you've done before, you have committed an offence. I'd suggest it comes down to what the actual arrival time of your inbound service was, and the scheduled departure time of the northbound service. If you can tell us which services they were and the date then I expect someone can check from industry records whether your first train was on time or delayed. (If you're not sure there should be a timestamp on your nil fare ticket which would help.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you island you are right but at the time I was not aware that I was required to buy a ticket at the ticket office when for the past 30 years I have always bought my ticket on the train for this particular journey.
Nelson

Nelson - this is a key issue (as Brissle Girl says) and has an impact on whether my prev advice would work. IF you had time to have gone to the ticket office at Cheltenham Spa when you changed trains and still caught your intended connection then my view is XC would win in court and this would cost you more than settling the (OTT) sum they are asking now.

You say you have 6 mins at Cheltenham to make the change. Can you set out the times (scheduled) and date of travel? We can then check them against the 'allowable time' to change which has a bearing on the line of argument you will need to set out:

eg: Dep Ashchurch 11.24
arr Cheltenham: ?

Dep Cheltenahm: ?
Arr : Brum New St: ?

Date of Travel: ?

If we can get a bit more info we can get the argument and tone of what you need to write correct.

 

[WesternLancer]

Folks, I've just looked at an XC paper timetable and they do not cite a 'minimum connection time' for Cheltenham Spa (they do for other stations) - I assume this is as its not a complex interchange station where many people need to change. However, knowing the layout it's not really very easy to get from platform to ticket office and back again in 6 mins and def not if any sort of queue.

Anyone know if Cheltenham does have a 'min connection time'?

I can't locate a pre covid pdf timetable that shows departures from Ashchurch to work out what journey plan the OP would have been running to.

Anyone have any ideas on this?
Is Ashchurch served by TOCS other than XC? I assume it is.

Any views on how long it would be reasonable time to get a ticket at Cheltenham? (assuming to reasonable to expect the OP to miss their connection).

I do think the key thing here is that the TMs paperwork says travel was from a staffed station so TIL /XC back office will just have looked at that and decided the OP has got on a train at Cheltenham, walked past a ticket office and not bothered to buy a ticket when they had the chance to do so, which is not the case.

(I have to say most written correspondence I've ever had with XC over tickets / refunds has never once given me any faith their customer services staff have been given the time / able to read, understand and reply to me. In every case I can think of replies have been gobbledegook that I have had to appeal over...)

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyone know if Cheltenham does have a 'min connection time'?

It's five minutes.

 

[Brissle Girl]

A current GWR timetable PDF online states that the connection time is 5 mins (by default, as it doesn’t state a time, and says all others are the standard 5mins).

That is just to change trains of course. It’s a moot point whether an additional minute is adequate to buy a ticket as well. I would not like to try it, even without a queue.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't locate a pre covid pdf timetable that shows departures from Ashchurch to work out what journey plan the OP would have been running to.

Anyone have any ideas on this?

According to the pdf timetables on the NRE/NR site the itinerary was probably:

Aschurch dep: 11.25
Cheltenham arr: 11.34
Cheltenham dep: 11.40
New Street arr: 12.25

 

[WesternLancer]

It's five minutes.

Thanks

 

[WesternLancer]

A current GWR timetable PDF online states that the connection time is 5 mins (by default, as it doesn’t state a time, and says all others are the standard 5mins).

That is just to change trains of course. It’s a moot point whether an additional minute is adequate to buy a ticket as well. I would not like to try it, even without a queue.

Thanks - and I'd doubt 6 mins was enough time to buy a ticket even if you did not have to leave the platform and IIRC at Cheltenham you would have to go up stairs, go through barrier line (where you would have to stop and explain why you did not have a ticket) and walk a few steps further to ticket office and face queue, and you may have got off on a part of the platform some distance from the stiars too. I'd say it was close to impossible to achieve.

So this is in the OPs favour as it is arguable that it is not a reasonable expectations to be able to get a ticket in the time of the change of train, thus the ticket must be offered on the train or at final destination. This is the argument that OP needs to make IMHO.

 

[WesternLancer]

According to the pdf timetables on the NRE/NR site the itinerary was probably:

Aschurch dep: 11.25
Cheltenham arr: 11.34
Cheltenham dep: 11.40
New Street arr: 12.25

Thanks Mike - looks likely.
If the OP shares date of travel then may be possible to check if he even had the full 6 minutes on that day - if online real time info still accessible for some time ago now.

But at least he is making a recongised connection if it is 6 mins and the min time required by the 'industry' is 5 mins.

All supports his line of argument IMHO.

 

[Brissle Girl]

There have been a couple of similar cases on this forum (Parson St to Bridgend with a short connection at Cardiff comes to mind). I think it would be interesting to ask the Rail Delivery Group for its view on the subject, to try and get a definitive position. Not sure who is best placed to ask though, someone like Barry Doe comes to mind.

 

[Western Sunset]

Looking at the National Rail plan of Cheltenham, there is also one ticket machine at the top of the steps to the southbound platform, in addition to one in the ticket hall. It says there are ticket gates, but they're not shown on the plan. So the OP would've gone past the ticket machine whilst changing platforms. Whether that would have a bearing on things I don't know. As others have said, 6 mins is a reasonable time to change trains here, but cutting it very fine to purchase a ticket too. Interesting that no ticket machine is on the northbound platform.

I think the key thing is to get TiL to understand that Ashchurch was their starting station. I know facilities at Ashchurch are limited to a couple of waiting shelters and help points; that's it.

Has the OP explicitly told us yet they asked for an Ashchurch - B'ham ticket from the XC guard?

 

[Parallel]

There are ticket barriers at Cheltenham Spa, and I think this is an out of date map. When I changed trains there earlier this year, I had to leave the station through the barriers to buy a ticket from the ticket machine. This photo shows the ticket machine on the inside of the station to where the barriers are now. Fortunately I had longer than 6 minutes to make a connection.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course it would also require a ticket machine that's capable of selling tickets from another origin. A feature which is more common than it used to be not universal just yet. I therefore suggest that the presence of a ticket machine at the interchange location is something of a red herring.

 

[Mag_seven]

Cheltenham Spa is not a large station, and the route to change trains takes you past the booking office. Is there a particular reason you didn't buy your ticket at that time?

There are ticket barriers at Cheltenham Spa, and I think this is an out of date map. When I changed trains there earlier this year, I had to leave the station through the barriers to buy a ticket from the ticket machine. This photo shows the ticket machine on the inside of the station to where the barriers are now. Fortunately I had longer than 6 minutes to make a connection.

You have to go through the barriers to access the ticket office / machine. So if you don't have a ticket then that means you would have to enter into a dialogue with the barrier attendant to get out all of which would eat into the 6 mins you require to make the connection the OP was making.

 

[WesternLancer]

Looking at the National Rail plan of Cheltenham, there is also one ticket machine at the top of the steps to the southbound platform, in addition to one in the ticket hall. It says there are ticket gates, but they're not shown on the plan. So the OP would've gone past the ticket machine whilst changing platforms. Whether that would have a bearing on things I don't know. As others have said, 6 mins is a reasonable time to change trains here, but cutting it very fine to purchase a ticket too. Interesting that no ticket machine is on the northbound platform.

I think the key thing is to get TiL to understand that Ashchurch was their starting station. I know facilities at Ashchurch are limited to a couple of waiting shelters and help points; that's it.

Has the OP explicitly told us yet they asked for an Ashchurch - B'ham ticket from the XC guard?

Ta - Even bearing in mind Parrallel's point about plan being out of date - can the ticket machine there issue a ticket for a journey starting at another station other than that where the machine is located? And is it reasonable to expect the passenger to know that, and achieve it within 6 mins? I doubt I could if it was a machine I'd never used before!

"Has the OP explicitly told us yet they asked for an Ashchurch - B'ham ticket from the XC guard?"

A Key point. I think it is implicit in the OPs posts that they did, and it would be hard to recall an exact conversation but would help if Nelson clarified this. Given the OP had to argue with the TM to say they usually did this one might assume that the TM would dispute this if they assumed they had come from a staffed station and that it would have come up int he debate that there had been a misunderstanding about journey origin point.
(as an aside if the TM had issued a the ticket requested and issued it from Cheltenham would the OP have corrected her and asked for it to be re-issued from Ashchurch or thought 'oh well I've saved a bit here as they have not charged me for start at Ashchurch' but I'm working on the basis that the OP would want to go home again to Ashchurch and thus would want a valid return to that station.

As I posted above it sounds to me like the nub of all this is a TM who failed to appreciate that the passenger got on at Ashchurch and had not feasible opportunity to buy a ticket before her ticket check on the 2nd leg of the journey.

Hopefully the OP will come back and clarify a few points so we can help with draft letters etc.

PS
[drafted the above before helpful posts from Ainsworth and Mag-7 were visible to me!]