TIL claim for unpaid fare

[ainsworth74]

I've only used it once but unless you got straight off where the stairs to the bridge are, made it through the barrier immediately without having to flag anyone down and there was no queue (beyond perhaps one person in the middle of a translation) I would not fancy my chances of buying a ticket in six minutes at Cheltenham Spa and making my next train. It is worth recalling that five minutes is the minimum interchange time (for which it is perfectly suitable) not time to change trains and do other tasks as well.

 

[NelsonPK]

All - thanks once again for your advice. The date was 22nd November. The added complication was that the 11.25 train from Ashchurch was in fact late (I think by about 20 minutes) so I missed the regular11.40 connection and had to wait for the next one 12.10 I think. This added a further issue in my mind to check to see the time of the next train by going onto the North bound platform. I did not contemplate then going back to the ticket office through the barriers as you say but also because purchasing a ticket on the north bound train has never been a problem in the past. No TM has ever questioned it and I have plenty of ticket receipts to prove it. Anyway TIL have now accepted in writing that I commenced my journey at Ashchurch so the argument appears to have narrowed down to the TM maintaining that I "refused to buy a ticket" when I openly offered to buy a ticket with the senior railcard which she refused to accept but she was prepared to sell me a full price ticket. So in my book this is all about whether a senior railcard is valid when used to purchase a ticket on a train.

Does this alter your thoughts?

Nelson

 

[NelsonPK]

...I can also confirm that I asked for a "day return from Ashchurch to Birmingham with senior railcard" the TM response to that specific question was "you cannot use a railcard when purchasing a ticket on a train - you have to pay the full price" my response was "this has never been an issue in the past especially when boarding a train without a ticket office"

As an aside I also travel a lot from Pershore to London on Great Western. There is no ticket office at Pershore either and purchasing a ticket with senior railcard on this journey has never been a problem and on occasions one has to purchase a ticket at Paddington before the barriers. Again never a problem.

 

[NelsonPK]

I propse to send the attached draft response to TIL. I would be grateful for your views.

Nelson

 

[_toommm_]

It does run a little long - from reading previous threads in this part of the forum, you run the risk of the agents at TIL only skimming through your letter and potentially missing your point.

Personally, I would cut it down quite a bit and mention the relevant part of the NRCoT (the rule book, essentially) that was alluded to earlier (but again, cut down):

The National Conditions of Travel state:
"6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares;
...
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed. "

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

Clearly, if there is insufficient time to reach the booking office at Cheltenham, then you are not reasonably able to pay your fare at that point, so your first reasonable opportunity is the guard on the train north from Cheltenham. Indeed, whilst information boxes are not binding, the following information box backs up this view:
"INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there issufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination."

I would write back to TIL pointing out these facts, that you are contractually entitled to buy on board in these circumstances.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would suggest that the letter is not longer than one page.

 

[Western Sunset]

Just a couple of observations.

From TRUST, the 1048 from Gt Malvern - Brighton left Ashchurch 7min late on the day in question and arrived at Cheltenham still 7L. Ironically it arrived just as the 1100 BTM - Man Pic (which the OP intended to catch) was pulling out on time. The next service to B'ham was the 0925 Plymouth - Aberdeen, which left on time at 1211.

That leaves half an hour to buy a ticket at Cheltenham.

I'm not a great fan of TiL, but I'd be wondering why the OP didn't buy their ticket then.

 

[WesternLancer]

All - thanks once again for your advice. The date was 22nd November. The added complication was that the 11.25 train from Ashchurch was in fact late (I think by about 20 minutes) so I missed the regular11.40 connection and had to wait for the next one 12.10 I think. This added a further issue in my mind to check to see the time of the next train by going onto the North bound platform. I did not contemplate then going back to the ticket office through the barriers as you say but also because purchasing a ticket on the north bound train has never been a problem in the past. No TM has ever questioned it and I have plenty of ticket receipts to prove it. Anyway TIL have now accepted in writing that I commenced my journey at Ashchurch so the argument appears to have narrowed down to the TM maintaining that I "refused to buy a ticket" when I openly offered to buy a ticket with the senior railcard which she refused to accept but she was prepared to sell me a full price ticket. So in my book this is all about whether a senior railcard is valid when used to purchase a ticket on a train.

Does this alter your thoughts?

Nelson

Thanks Nelson, I'm not an expert on that but I am very confident that if no ticket purchase option at station there is no requirement that the railcard discount is lost. If you were to look at it from the staff point of view it could only be claimed that you should have paid the full fare then argued for a partial refund later, but I don't believe this is the necessary rule at all.

So the line of argument is not that you refused to buy a ticket it is that you attempted to insist on buying the CORRECT ticket which the member of staff refused to sell.

If you have to edit your letter down a bit don't forget that you should still pressure them via Transport Focus and your MP

 

[WesternLancer]

Just a couple of observations.

From TRUST, the 1048 from Gt Malvern - Brighton left Ashchurch 7min late on the day in question and arrived at Cheltenham still 7L. Ironically it arrived just as the 1100 BTM - Man Pic (which the OP intended to catch) was pulling out on time. The next service to B'ham was the 0925 Plymouth - Aberdeen, which left on time at 1211.

That leaves half an hour to buy a ticket at Cheltenham.

I'm not a great fan of TiL, but I'd be wondering why the OP didn't buy their ticket then.

umm....
probably best none of that is mentioned and it is left to TIL to study TRUST and ask that question....

Nelson does indicate that as he had always been permitted to buy on board he had no reason not to do what he would have normally done, which I think if you travel from stations with no ticketing facilities is not an unreasonable approach in my opinion.

I also think that the onus would have been on the TM to state - 'well, in this case you had time to buy at your change point and you did not so I am afraid I am only able to offer you the full price fare' but that does not seem to have been part of what Nelson has said - and he has been clear and detailed in all respects in his outline to us.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I wouldn’t say you have done this for the last thirty years as Ashchurch has only been open for 23, so run the risk of being seen to exaggerate your case. Besides, fare policies and conditions of travel do change, so precedent that far back is not particularly relevant. (More recent journeys might be, and that is the point you want to make.)

Neither would I mention that your wife can be a witness - I wouldn’t imagine a related person would be regarded as a suitably independent person to corroborate a story.

Under para 6 of the Conditions of Travel you were required to buy a ticket at Cheltenham as you had the time to do so. Whether TiL spot this is another matter, but if they do I still think you are in difficulty, as Para 9 says that the train manager was right to charge you a full undiscounted single fare, (as you had boarded the train without a valid ticket, with no good reason to do so). That would exclude any railcard discount.

So you do run the risk of being taken to court and losing.

The next bit is pure speculation but by escalating to other parties, might you run the risk that TiL pour over the case with a fine tooth comb and spot the flaw in your argument? I also believe they have been known to read this forum with interest, for obvious reasons.

 

[Western Sunset]

Just playing devil's advocate. I've re-read the OPs draft reply and it does come over as quite aggressive, a bit pompous and rather over-egging the pudding. There is a lot of talk about "your train manager" but as the letter is to TiL, they don't run the trains and that might put their backs up and delve more deeply into the case as Brissle Girl suggests.

That's just the feeling I get from the tone of the letter. Others may, of course, read it differently.

 

[RHolmes]

I'm not an expert on that but I am very confident that if no ticket purchase option at station there is no requirement that the railcard discount is lost.

If a station has no ticket buying facilities then the railcard discount can be used onboard a train. However, 28 minutes is more than ample time to purchase a ticket at the connecting station, especially one with a 5 minute connection time.

You MUST buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity and buying a ticket onboard the second service was the third opportunity.

1 - Original train, OP did not seek Conductor for ticket
2 - OP did not buy ticket during 28 minute connection at station
3 - OP requested discounted fare which on this particular occasion was rightly refused by TM (Admittedly not the best customer service, and also how would the TM know the connection time? but technically follows the conditions of carriage on this particular trip)

 

[clagmonster]

I remain convinced that you could not be prosecuted under the railway byelaws at "there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey".
https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf - Byelaw 18 (3) (i)

However, there is a possibility that a prosecutor could argue for a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act
"5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.
3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

Regulation of Railways Act 1889

An Act to amend the Regulation of Railways Acts; and for other purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

It is clear and undisputed that you had not previously paid your fare. It could well be argued that in the approximately 30 minutes you had at Cheltenham Spa station, you were "reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey", hence having turned down this payment opportunity showed intent at that time to avoid payment of the fare. I do not have the legal knowledge as to whether your defence would succeed against such charges.

Morally, I think you are in the right. However what is moral and what is legal do not always equate.

 

[cactustwirly]

I remain convinced that you could not be prosecuted under the railway byelaws at "there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey".
https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf - Byelaw 18 (3) (i)

However, there is a possibility that a prosecutor could argue for a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act
"5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.
3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

Regulation of Railways Act 1889

An Act to amend the Regulation of Railways Acts; and for other purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

It is clear and undisputed that you had not previously paid your fare. It could well be argued that in the approximately 30 minutes you had at Cheltenham Spa station, you were "reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey", hence having turned down this payment opportunity showed intent at that time to avoid payment of the fare. I do not have the legal knowledge as to whether your defence would succeed against such charges.

Morally, I think you are in the right. However what is moral and what is legal do not always equate.

I agree I don't think a byelaw prosecution could proceed.
However with a Regulation of Railways act, the ToC/TIL need to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt to successfully prosecute.
Merely not buying a ticket doesn't necessarily prove intent, and the OP did try to buy a ticket onboard the XC train from Birmingham.

 

[Brissle Girl]

and the OP did try to buy a ticket onboard the XC train from Birmingham.

I’m not sure the argument that the OP tried to buy a ticket onboard the second train is sufficient evidence of intent to purchase a ticket unless they went out of their way on boarding to seek out the TM. Most people actively looking to avoid paying will, when they are identified in a normal ticket inspection as not having a ticket, seek to purchase at that point.

I’m not suggesting that was the intent here, far from it, just that your argument doesn’t hold water.

The fact that they chose to forgo the opportunity at Cheltenham, despite having 20 mins to wait, could be construed as evidence that they did however, particularly as it breaches the Conditions of Travel to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity.

 

[221129]

All - thanks once again for your advice. The date was 22nd November. The added complication was that the 11.25 train from Ashchurch was in fact late (I think by about 20 minutes) so I missed the regular11.40 connection and had to wait for the next one 12.10 I think. This added a further issue in my mind to check to see the time of the next train by going onto the North bound platform. I did not contemplate then going back to the ticket office through the barriers as you say but also because purchasing a ticket on the north bound train has never been a problem in the past. No TM has ever questioned it and I have plenty of ticket receipts to prove it. Anyway TIL have now accepted in writing that I commenced my journey at Ashchurch so the argument appears to have narrowed down to the TM maintaining that I "refused to buy a ticket" when I openly offered to buy a ticket with the senior railcard which she refused to accept but she was prepared to sell me a full price ticket. So in my book this is all about whether a senior railcard is valid when used to purchase a ticket on a train.

Does this alter your thoughts?

Nelson

This is a complication as it would seem a criminal prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act would succeed. I would pay the settlement and then maybe file a separate complaint with XC.

 

[221129]

I agree I don't think a byelaw prosecution could proceed.
However with a Regulation of Railways act, the ToC/TIL need to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt to successfully prosecute.
Merely not buying a ticket doesn't necessarily prove intent, and the OP did try to buy a ticket onboard the XC train from Birmingham.

The OP missed an opportunity to purchase and then refused to buy a ticket when requested. Slam dunk. One the OP didn't buy a ticket at the first opportunity the right to use a railcard on board is foregone.

 

[Brissle Girl]

This is a complication as it would seem a criminal prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act would succeed. I would pay the settlement and then maybe file a separate complaint with XC.

Not sure exactly what the complaint would be. The Train Manager would have appeared to have followed the guidelines correctly in this particular instance, albeit probably unwittingly.

We don’t know how the conversation went between the two parties on the day of course. But on the basis of the draft letter we’ve seen, it could possibly be that the OP came across as somewhat self-righteous and indignant, which may not have encouraged the TM that this was a case where they might show some flexibility in handling it. And of course there is absolutely no obligation for them to do anything other than act in accordance with the rules.

 

[cactustwirly]

The OP missed an opportunity to purchase and then refused to buy a ticket when requested. Slam dunk. One the OP didn't buy a ticket at the first opportunity the right to use a railcard on board is foregone.

That doesn't show intent to evade the fare though, that's just traveling without a valid ticket.

 

[221129]

That doesn't show intent to evade the fare though, that's just traveling without a valid ticket.

The refusal to buy the ticket on board sealed the deal. Also walking past ticket purchasing facilities which the OP would have done at Cheltenham can be easily argued as showing intent to avoid payment.

 

[cactustwirly]

The refusal to buy the ticket on board sealed the deal. Also walking past ticket purchasing facilities which the OP would have done at Cheltenham can be easily argued as showing intent to avoid payment.

Can it be argued yes, but can it be proved beyond reasonable doubt?
If the OP had a reasonable explanation to why he didn't buy a ticket at Cheltenham, then that could create some doubt...

 

[Llanigraham]

Just a couple of observations.

From TRUST, the 1048 from Gt Malvern - Brighton left Ashchurch 7min late on the day in question and arrived at Cheltenham still 7L. Ironically it arrived just as the 1100 BTM - Man Pic (which the OP intended to catch) was pulling out on time. The next service to B'ham was the 0925 Plymouth - Aberdeen, which left on time at 1211.

That leaves half an hour to buy a ticket at Cheltenham.

I'm not a great fan of TiL, but I'd be wondering why the OP didn't buy their ticket then.

If those timings are correct then I don't think the OP has a leg to stand on. That would be more than adequate time to buy a ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

I propse to send the attached draft response to TIL. I would be grateful for your views.

Nelson

Hi Nelson - I have now read your draft in full carefully, and I've carefully read the recent posts the general thrust of which I agree with. Sadly the missed connection and the time that then created at Cheltenham seriously undermines thew strength of your case IMHO (case to be found not guilty if it went to court that is). This is because your case is really based on the fact that on all other occasion you have been permitted to buy on board at discounted rate but on this occasion were not so permitted to do.

Ref your letter - I support your aggrieved tone but (sadly) a large part of the letter's points are really customer service issues for XC to address - and nothing to do with TIL - the only focus of writing to them is to persuade them that if they take it to court there is a good chance they will loose. This is because the only thing TIL are interested in is a successful outcome at court or extracting the circa £90 out of you now ahead of court.

I think you need to appeal more tot he goodwill and the tone of that letter will not achieve that.

Obv your other option is to go to a solicitor ref this (you may get one to give you some initial free advice) but my hunch is that could end up costing more than £90

I'm happy to suggest some edits and will re-post an edited version you could consider using / working with if you like?

 

[WesternLancer]

The refusal to buy the ticket on board sealed the deal. Also walking past ticket purchasing facilities which the OP would have done at Cheltenham can be easily argued as showing intent to avoid payment.

I think the only reasonable explanation is that the OP had happily been allowed by staff on all previous occasions to buy on board and had no reason to believe this service would not be afforded again on this occasion as a result of previous custom and practice.

I'm not sure that would be enough to prevent a 'slam dunk' conclusion at the court - even if the magistrates etc were sympathetic!

 

[NelsonPK]

Can it be argued yes, but can it be proved beyond reasonable doubt?
If the OP had a reasonable explanation to why he didn't buy a ticket at Cheltenham, then that could create some doubt...

Once again thanks for the advice - quite diverse but all helpful. In answer to the question of why did I not go to the ticket office in Cheltenham is two fold; 1) it never occurred to me because I knew I could buy my ticket on the train and 2) I was on the phone organising a half hour delay yo my meeting in Birmingham (which I was due to chair). In fact when I think about it I was doing this on the train between Ashchurch and Cheltenham and frankly did not realise that the TM had not appeared and was still worrying about this during my time on the north platform waiting for the next train.
It is also true that when the TM asked for tickets (from Cheltenham) I simply asked to buy one there and then and was not expecting any issues so maybe I expressed surprise at her attitude. However I was probably still annoyed by the delays.

 

[NelsonPK]

Hi Nelson - I have now read your draft in full carefully, and I've carefully read the recent posts the general thrust of which I agree with. Sadly the missed connection and the time that then created at Cheltenham seriously undermines thew strength of your case IMHO (case to be found not guilty if it went to court that is). This is because your case is really based on the fact that on all other occasion you have been permitted to buy on board at discounted rate but on this occasion were not so permitted to do.

Ref your letter - I support your aggrieved tone but (sadly) a large part of the letter's points are really customer service issues for XC to address - and nothing to do with TIL - the only focus of writing to them is to persuade them that if they take it to court there is a good chance they will loose. This is because the only thing TIL are interested in is a successful outcome at court or extracting the circa £90 out of you now ahead of court.

I think you need to appeal more tot he goodwill and the tone of that letter will not achieve that.

Obv your other option is to go to a solicitor ref this (you may get one to give you some initial free advice) but my hunch is that could end up costing more than £90

I'm happy to suggest some edits and will re-post an edited version you could consider using / working with if you like?

WestrnLancer
I appreciate your very impartial and considered advice. I know from experience that there is a difference between the moral high ground and legal certainty. When listening to all this advice maybe I should have appealed sooner to Cross Country Trains but maybe not too late to do so now. I do not need to reply to TIL for a week or two.

 

[221129]

WestrnLancer
I appreciate your very impartial and considered advice. I know from experience that there is a difference between the moral high ground and legal certainty. When listening to all this advice maybe I should have appealed sooner to Cross Country Trains but maybe not too late to do so now. I do not need to reply to TIL for a week or two.

My advice, Stop the action and pay the £90. THEN after that appeal back to CrossCountry to try and get the money back.

 

[221129]

I think the only reasonable explanation is that the OP had happily been allowed by staff on all previous occasions to buy on board and had no reason to believe this service would not be afforded again on this occasion as a result of previous custom and practice.

I'm not sure that would be enough to prevent a 'slam dunk' conclusion at the court - even if the magistrates etc were sympathetic!

If you're not caught or get let off speeding several times doesn't give a defence if someone wants to follow the rules and do you for it. Same applies.

 

[yorkie]

If you're not caught or get let off speeding several times doesn't give a defence if someone wants to follow the rules and do you for it. Same applies.

Not an appropriate analogy but I don't want to drag the thread off topic by talking about comparisons between the two. But if you are interested in learning more, you could look up the concept of custom and practice. But any discussion is for a separate thread.

 

[Western Sunset]

Can anyone recall the outcome of the case concerning the guy going from Parson Street to Bridgend, where he stated "Bristol" as the origin point and it confused matters? Certain similarities with this example.