TIL claim for unpaid fare

[WesternLancer]

WestrnLancer
I appreciate your very impartial and considered advice. I know from experience that there is a difference between the moral high ground and legal certainty. When listening to all this advice maybe I should have appealed sooner to Cross Country Trains but maybe not too late to do so now. I do not need to reply to TIL for a week or two.

Thanks Nelson - and I fully appreciate that time taken sorting a mtg due to a missed connection is a pretty reasonable thing to do in that time window.

I think you have these options:

A) a revised letter to TIL focusing on why they should not prosecute AND a different revised letter to XC appealing to them to instruct TIL to drop the case (happy to have a go at editing your draft)
B) In both of these making it clear you intend to involve the Watchdog / your MP (which may not bother TIL as it occurs to me that XC might have to pick up the admin costs of dealing with that...)
or
C) following the good advice by 221129 and paying TIL the £90 with a clear statement of 'paying reluctantly' and indicating that you still will pursue with Watchdog AND appealing to XC as 221129 suggests (This has the strong benefit of preventing any court action)

In addition always implement option Z) going froward, which is being sure to reclaim delay repay claims on every late train whenever to be sure to reclaim your £90 over time

 

[WesternLancer]

anyone know what the official name is for these £0 payment tickets? I assume they are also issued with a note/form saying they have taken your name and address for further action, what are those notes called? Thanks

 

[yorkie]

anyone know what the official name is for these £0 payment tickets? I assume they are also issued with a note/form saying they have taken your name and address for further action, what are those notes called? Thanks

Travel Irregularity Report (TIR)

 

[WesternLancer]

Travel Irregularity Report (TIR)

Thanks Yorkie

 

[Western Sunset]

I'm more than happy for someone else to double-check the relevant train timings for that particular day (Fri 22nd Nov) if they like.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm more than happy for someone else to double-check the relevant train timings for that particular day (Fri 22nd Nov) if they like.

I'm sure you are correct on the TRUST times, but the OP has given a reasonable excuse as to what he had to do in the time window due to missed connection (ie get on to whoever he was chairing the meeting for and make necessary provision). But this may not be 'acceptable' in the 'slam dunk scenario' so IMHO no need to get into it unless XC or TIL want to talk about before or in court....

 

[WesternLancer]

WestrnLancer
I appreciate your very impartial and considered advice. I know from experience that there is a difference between the moral high ground and legal certainty. When listening to all this advice maybe I should have appealed sooner to Cross Country Trains but maybe not too late to do so now. I do not need to reply to TIL for a week or two.

Hi Nelson - this is my stab at what you could send to TIL - obv amend as you see fit and others may have views on amends to improve it. I've basically cut out all the poor service issues with XC staff and delays. I suggest Transport Focus simply because their website says here https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/rail-complaints/
It may be that it needs to go to Rail Ombudsman and Transport Focus (TF) - note this is NOT a penalty fare scenario as I understand it (I'm referring back to that link re Penalty Fare)

STARTS

DRAFT
Date
Our Ref
Your Ref TIL020501 24rd April 2020
PLK



Elaine Ashby
TIL
1 Station Approach
March
Cambridgeshire
PE15 8SJ


Dear Ms Ashby

Reference TIL020501

Journey: 11.24 Ashchurch to Birmingham New Street. Date: 22 November 2019

I write in response to your letter of the 17th April 2020. I am disappointed that you concluded there is no reason to change your view and I write again to press you on what I regard as the key matter.

This is not that I refused to pay my train fare, this is manifestly not true. I offered to pay the correct fare but that the member of staff on board the train refused to sell me the ticket discounted with my Senior Railcard, to which I am firmly of the view I was entitled to purchase.

As you accept, I boarded the train at Ashchurch where no ticket issuing facilities are provided therefore I always buy my tickets on board. The Railcard discount has always been accepted.

This seems to me to be fully in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel, Part C Sections 6.1 / 6.1.1: “At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine…
“The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.”

When approached on the train, the Train Manager refused to accept my Railcard and insisted I should pay for a full price ticket. Since I believed this would be the wrong ticket I declined to purchase it.

The situation was not helped by the Train Manager making a further error in issuing me with a £0 fare ticket and Travel Irregularity Report from the wrong originating station (Cheltenham instead of Ashchurch) which I believe has aggravated the difficulties surrounding this case as I suspect TIL were given the wrong journey details by Cross Country Trains, when this matter was referred to you. Unfortunately I failed to notice this at the time I was handed the ticket. I will be taking that, and other related matters up separately with Cross Country Trains as the provider of the service concerned.

I am confident in my belief that I offered to pay the correct fare, and remain willing to pay that sum. At this stage I am fully prepared to present my case to a Court should you seek to pursue it. In the mean time I intend to also raise the matter with Transport Focus.

I am therefore enclosing a cheque in payment of £18.20 which I believe to be the correct fare between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street subject to a Senior Railcard discount.

I would conclude by asking you to look again at this case, with a view to:

• appreciating that I joined the train at a station with no ticketing facilities,
• sought to buy a ticket on board at the correct Railcard discounted rate, in accordance with the relevant Conditions of Travel
• accepting my payment of the correct fare as enclosed
• removing your threat of court action.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely


CC: Transport Focus

Enc: Payment

ENDS

PS If you want to avoid the Court (my option C) then you could amend the end of the letter and any relevant related bits to say eg

"I am putting on record that with extreme reluctance I am paying the sum you have requested so save the time and expense of court action. Since I believe the sum is unreasonable I shall seek refund of it from Cross Country Trains and enlist Transport Focus / Rail Ombudsman along with my MP in that"

Or maybe you could do that when they reply to you re the above but before it gets any closer to court?

It may then occur to them that it will cost more than £70-£90 of their admin time to respond to those parties when they investigate and ask for each parties 'evidence' etc...

 

[Western Sunset]

Agreed; no point directly helping TiL when their middle name is "Investigations" and from previous cases, they seem to do precious little of that themselves..... I just don't want to raise the OPs hopes when the case looks pretty much that he'd lose. Pay, then appeal.

PS Just read the above letter. Seem very reasonable but the "prepared to go to court" bit might be the wrong (and expensive) way to go.

 

[WesternLancer]

Agreed; no point directly helping TiL when their middle name is "Investigations" and from previous cases, they seem to do precious little of that themselves..... I just don't want to raise the OPs hopes when the case looks pretty much that he'd lose. Pay, then appeal.

PS Just read the above letter. Seem very reasonable but the "prepared to go to court" bit might be the wrong (and expensive) way to go.

but the "prepared to go to court" bit might be the wrong (and expensive) way to go

Cheers
I agree Sunset, hence my insertion of the words "at this stage" before hand (ie at any moment after writing that one might well no longer be 'fully prepared' to go to court), but yes for the OP to consider as I too think there may be a strong grounds to pay to avoid court and then argue with XC via TF/Rail Ombudsman/MP etc for the refund of the c£90 minus correct fare owed - eg c£70.

PS just added to the draft an option if the OP wants to pay £90 and argue with XC over it as per good advice in post #58

 

[Realfish]

If a station has no ticket buying facilities then the railcard discount can be used onboard a train. However, 28 minutes is more than ample time to purchase a ticket at the connecting station, especially one with a 5 minute connection time.

You MUST buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity and buying a ticket onboard the second service was the third opportunity.

1 - Original train, OP did not seek Conductor for ticket...

This again (which the OP has defended by telling us that he was attempting to reschedule his work)! Although an annotation appears in the NRCOT suggesting otherwise, there is no requirement for a passenger to seek out a train manger, this, for the many good reasons that have been discussed on this board for ages.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think, for the OP, you probably now have a choice on how to proceed in the following terms:

1. Pay the £90 to dispose of the matter and subsequently follow up with a complaint to CrossCountry regarding your treatment in particularly pointing to the fact that you've previously been able to purchase on board (though I don't personally think custom and practice is a massive help here); or
2. Dispute the matter with TIL pointing to relevant provisions of the NRCoT regarding, confusion introduced by the XC TM by issuing the TIR with the wrong origin and enclosing payment for the fare that you believe is due.

It all now hinges on your risk appetite. Option one is the lowest risk but equally you are extremely unlikely, in my view, to ever see any of the £90 back in any shape or form.

Option two is higher risk, my personal opinion (and I'm not a lawyer) is that if you reply in those terms TIL will, most likely, seek raise a prosecution against you for attempting to evade the fare due. It's possible that they may just cash the cheque and tell you not to do it again but my experience with TIL is that there is no more rock headed organisation out there when it comes to prosecuting first and asking questions later.

Others on this thread feel that you have a defence against having intent to avoid the fare proven against you because you were seeking to rearrange your meeting (can you prove this? Is there a record of the phone call? Is the person you spoke to willing to testify that you were on the call with them for the entire time you were at Cheltenham Spa?). Up until it became clear that you had plenty of time to purchase ticket at Cheltenham Spa I feel you had a very strong case. But now that there was time to buy a ticket there my personal opinion is that your defence is fatally undermined.

My advice is that you should pay the £90 and then pursue a complaint. But my risk appetite may well be lower than yours!

To those advising copying the Rail Ombudsman or Transport Focus into this matter I would point out that neither organisation will get involved in a complaint until the relevant company has had the opportunity to respond (see the Rail Ombudsman's steps to take before starting a complaint here for example). Attempting to involve them at this stage simply adds confusion.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think, for the OP, you probably now have a choice on how to proceed in the following terms:

1. Pay the £90 to dispose of the matter and subsequently follow up with a complaint to CrossCountry regarding your treatment in particularly pointing to the fact that you've previously been able to purchase on board (though I don't personally think custom and practice is a massive help here); or
2. Dispute the matter with TIL pointing to relevant provisions of the NRCoT regarding, confusion introduced by the XC TM by issuing the TIR with the wrong origin and enclosing payment for the fare that you believe is due.

It all now hinges on your risk appetite. Option one is the lowest risk but equally you are extremely unlikely, in my view, to ever see any of the £90 back in any shape or form.

Option two is higher risk, my personal opinion (and I'm not a lawyer) is that if you reply in those terms TIL will, most likely, seek raise a prosecution against you for attempting to evade the fare due. It's possible that they may just cash the cheque and tell you not to do it again but my experience with TIL is that there is no more rock headed organisation out there when it comes to prosecuting first and asking questions later.

Others on this thread feel that you have a defence against having intent to avoid the fare proven against you because you were seeking to rearrange your meeting (can you prove this? Is there a record of the phone call? Is the person you spoke to willing to testify that you were on the call with them for the entire time you were at Cheltenham Spa?). Up until it became clear that you had plenty of time to purchase ticket at Cheltenham Spa I feel you had a very strong case. But now that there was time to buy a ticket there my personal opinion is that your defence is fatally undermined.

My advice is that you should pay the £90 and then pursue a complaint. But my risk appetite may well be lower than yours!

To those advising copying the Rail Ombudsman or Transport Focus into this matter I would point out that neither organisation will get involved in a complaint until the relevant company has had the opportunity to respond (see the Rail Ombudsman's steps to take before starting a complaint here for example). Attempting to involve them at this stage simply adds confusion.

I agree with you Ainsworth and I expect you will have read my draft suggested letter to TIL

My reason for including CC to TF / Ombudsman is that it is a marker to TIL (and XC) that you will go that way and best to be clear to them now that is your intention.

But I think the OP should now carefully weigh up the risk options that you have so clearly very well set out.

My hunch is that if the local MP backed the case up and wrote to XC CEO asking for them to repay the sum over the ticket price owed if £90 was paid now as a goodwill gesture there is a good chance of that - and nothing lost by asking. But that's a hunch.

 

[island]

Like the above posters, I think that 28 minutes was ample time to have purchased a ticket at Cheltenham Spa station – therefore, the entitlement to use a Railcard on-board the train fell away and the train manager was entitled to ask for the undiscounted fare. As the OP chose not to pay this fare, it seems to me that a prosecution for travelling on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof would succeed.

To the two options proposed by ainsworth74 amongst others I would however add a third, albeit higher again in risk level, which is, if a prosecution issues after the negotiation referred to in the second option, to see whether TIL attempt to lay an information charging a Railway Byelaws offence of entering a train without a ticket instead. This would be relatively easily defended by pointing to the defence of the journey starting at an unstaffed station.

Like others, I recommend paying the requested amount promptly to avoid the situation escalating further and do not recommend the option I have just laid out, but it is there as a consideration.

 

[MikeWh]

I am therefore enclosing a cheque in payment of £19.32 which I believe to be the correct fare between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street subject to a Senior Railcard discount.

Not sure where you get this figure from. It will certainly not end in a 2. Brfares has single and off-peak return fares cheaper than that while the anytime return is way more. I do realise that we are talking about last years fares, but I don't think they have been reduced.

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi Nelson - this is my stab at what you could send to TIL - obv amend as you see fit and others may have views on amends to improve it. I've basically cut out all the poor service issues with XC staff and delays. I suggest Transport Focus simply because their website says here https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/rail-complaints/
It may be that it needs to go to Rail Ombudsman and Transport Focus (TF) - note this is NOT a penalty fare scenario as I understand it (I'm referring back to that link re Penalty Fare)

STARTS

DRAFT
Date
Our Ref
Your Ref TIL020501 24rd April 2020
PLK



Elaine Ashby
TIL
1 Station Approach
March
Cambridgeshire
PE15 8SJ


Dear Ms Ashby

Reference TIL020501

Journey: 11.24 Ashchurch to Birmingham New Street. Date: 22 November 2019

I write in response to your letter of the 17th April 2020. I am disappointed that you concluded there is no reason to change your view and I write again to press you on what I regard as the key matter.

This is not that I refused to pay my train fare, this is manifestly not true. I offered to pay the correct fare but that the member of staff on board the train refused to sell me the ticket discounted with my Senior Railcard, to which I am firmly of the view I was entitled to purchase.

As you accept, I boarded the train at Ashchurch where no ticket issuing facilities are provided therefore I always buy my tickets on board. The Railcard discount has always been accepted.

This seems to me to be fully in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel, Part C Sections 6.1 / 6.1.1: “At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine…
“The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.”

When approached on the train, the Train Manager refused to accept my Railcard and insisted I should pay for a full price ticket. Since I believed this would be the wrong ticket I declined to purchase it.

The situation was not helped by the Train Manager making a further error in issuing me with a £0 fare ticket and Travel Irregularity Report from the wrong originating station (Cheltenham instead of Ashchurch) which I believe has aggravated the difficulties surrounding this case as I suspect TIL were given the wrong journey details by Cross Country Trains, when this matter was referred to you. Unfortunately I failed to notice this at the time I was handed the ticket. I will be taking that, and other related matters up separately with Cross Country Trains as the provider of the service concerned.

I am confident in my belief that I offered to pay the correct fare, and remain willing to pay that sum. At this stage I am fully prepared to present my case to a Court should you seek to pursue it. In the mean time I intend to also raise the matter with Transport Focus.

I am therefore enclosing a cheque in payment of £19.32 which I believe to be the correct fare between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street subject to a Senior Railcard discount.

I would conclude by asking you to look again at this case, with a view to:

• appreciating that I joined the train at a station with no ticketing facilities,
• sought to buy a ticket on board at the correct Railcard discounted rate, in accordance with the relevant Conditions of Travel
• accepting my payment of the correct fare as enclosed
• removing your threat of court action.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely


CC: Transport Focus

Enc: Payment

ENDS

PS If you want to avoid the Court (my option C) then you could amend the end of the letter and any relevant related bits to say eg

"I am putting on record that with extreme reluctance I am paying the sum you have requested so save the time and expense of court action. Since I believe the sum is unreasonable I shall seek refund of it from Cross Country Trains and enlist Transport Focus / Rail Ombudsman along with my MP in that"

Or maybe you could do that when they reply to you re the above but before it gets any closer to urt?

It may then occur to them that it will cost more than £70-£90 of their admin time to respond to those parties when they investigate and ask for each parties 'evidence' etc...

But that still totally ignores the 28 minutes the OP had waiting at Cheltenham due to the train delays. (for which he could have later claimed "delay repay"). And from my experience, using the "I was on the phone" for whatever reason as a defense will not go down well.

 

[Brissle Girl]

...organising a half hour delay yo my meeting in Birmingham (which I was due to chair).

maybe I expressed surprise at her attitude. However I was probably still annoyed by the delays.

As a complete aside, I would not be comfortable as Chair scheduling a meeting which relies on two trains being on time, with a seven minute connection between them (which realistically means if the first is more than 3 or 4 mins late you will be pushed to get the second). You only have to look at typical reliability stats to realise that there is a relatively high probability that you will be late. We might all want and expect trains to be on time, but the real world is different, and one has to make allowance of that, the amount of contingency built in depending on one's preference to be on time.

Not relevant to the point in question, but one needs to temper ones anger about an event that is not entirely unforeseeable.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not sure where you get this figure from. It will certainly not end in a 2. Brfares has single and off-peak return fares cheaper than that while the anytime return is way more. I do realise that we are talking about last years fares, but I don't think they have been reduced.

Thanks Mike
I got it from the OPs draft letter (I then quickly checked BR fares site but did not recalculate the railcard discount) -I'm sure if you give correct fare OP can insert it or I will edit my draft with a revised figure. As you say should ideally be for the previous set of fares before Jan 2020 rise in a perfect world.

 

[WesternLancer]

But that still totally ignores the 28 minutes the OP had waiting at Cheltenham due to the train delays. (for which he could have later claimed "delay repay"). And from my experience, using the "I was on the phone" for whatever reason as a defense will not go down well.

It ignores that deliberately - nowhere has the OP said that TIL have told him that due to a missed connection due to a late train he then had an obligation to go to the ticket office - it's up to them to argue that or present it in court which they might well do. As pointed out above why mention something that it is 'your opponents' job to point out?

It's pertinent to the OP in weighing up risk of his chosen way forward, there is no need IMHO to mull over it in discussion with TIL!

 

[221129]

Of course it ignores that - nowhere has the OP said that TIL have told him that due to a missed connection due to a late train he then had an obligation to go to the ticket office - it's up to them to argue that or present it in court which they might well do. As pointed out above why mention something that it 'your opponents' job to point out?

It's pertinent to the OP in weighing up risk of his chosen way forward, there is no need IMHO to mull over it in discussion with TIL!

XC and TIL monitor these forums and there are enough details here to identify the case. So I wouldnt bother too much about that.

 

[221129]

Thanks Mike
I got it from the OPs draft letter (I then quickly checked BR fares site but did not recalculate the railcard discount) -I'm sure if you give correct fare OP can insert it or I will edit my draft with a revised figure. As you say should ideally be for the previous set of fares before Jan 2020 rise in a perfect world.

Just remember the correct fare to offer in the letter is the Non railcard discounted fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just remember the correct fare to offer in the letter is the Non railcard discounted fare.

Thanks - I don't understand, why would that be when the OPs whole issue is that he wants to pay the discounted fare (£18.20 discounted from £27.60 I think from a check on NRES site using 2020 fares)

PS have corrected the fare in the draft to £18.20 (see post #68)

 

[221129]

Thanks - I don't understand, why would that be when the OPs whole issue is that he wants to pay the discounted fare (£18.20 discounted from £27.60 I think from a check on NRES site using 2020 fares)

PS have corrected the fare in the draft to £18.20 (see post #68)

Because the OP didnt take the first opportunity to buy a ticket. Therefore the fare offered on board is the correct fare to be offering.

 

[WesternLancer]

Because the OP didnt take the first opportunity to buy a ticket. Therefore the fare offered on board is the correct fare to be offering.

OK I see your logic, fair point - but that would not work in the context of the draft letter to TIL - inc the OPs draft as well as mine - which is on the basis of the discounted fare. So it's up to the OP if he wants to use that line of argument or (and maybe someone else can draft it for OP to consider) ie send a reply which says along the lines of "OK, I should have paid the full fare and here it is, sorry I refused to pay it on the train and refused again to pay it when you last wrote to me"

Might be best if we now await OP to return and consider the risk issues well set out here above so that he can choose which route to go down.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yes, it's the OPs next move. Think we've covered every angle.

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks - I don't understand, why would that be when the OPs whole issue is that he wants to pay the discounted fare (£18.20 discounted from £27.60 I think from a check on NRES site using 2020 fares)

PS have corrected the fare in the draft to £18.20 (see post #68)

Quite simply because the OP ignored the first opportunity to pay the fare, which was in the 28 minutes he had at Cheltenham.

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks Mike
I got it from the OPs draft letter (I then quickly checked BR fares site but did not recalculate the railcard discount) -I'm sure if you give correct fare OP can insert it or I will edit my draft with a revised figure. As you say should ideally be for the previous set of fares before Jan 2020 rise in a perfect world.

These are the current fares (assuming the OP was in Standard Class):

 

[NelsonPK]

All
Thank you again for all this detailed advice and options to consider. I have only just got back in and will contemplate the whole matter over the weekend. I now have it in my mind that there is a huge difference between the moral high ground and legal exactitude. You have presented both sides of this argument. When an event like this occurs it happens very quickly normally when one is caught off guard and the instant decisions one makes in the context of the argument may not be that well considered.
Someone has asked the name of the ticket I was issued. I attach a copy which I also forwarded to TIL. Note the time of issue 12.08 which means this train must have left Cheltenham a few minutes before. Equally I am convinced that the delayed link from Ashchurch was significantly later than the 7 minutes that has been recorded (it is not in the TOCs best interests to admit to the times of delays. Certainly the 11.42 train to Birmingham was well gone by the time I arrived).
I can certainly check my phone records for calls made between 11.30 and 12.00 noon on that day.
I raised the issue about the delays (not previously raised with TIL) because felt that if this does go to court TIL will do their homework and wonder why I was on the later train and not the earlier one.
Interestingly TIL have already sent me the senior railcard ts&cs. the salient points being
2.7 you must buy a ticket before boarding the train unless
2.7.1 There was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey.
In this case you will be able to use your railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.
So the question must be was Cheltenham my destination? No Birmingham was my destination. It does not say that one should but ones ticket at the earliest possible opportunity. Also I offered to purchase a ticket at Birmingham which according to the Ts&cs was in my rights to do so.
Please note that TIL have accepted in writing that my journey had commenced at Ashchurch. Therefore it is reasonable for a passenger to assume that one is entitled to buy a ticket with railcard at anytime during the journey. This was my assumption and has been the basis of my argument with TIL.

I have noted the editing of my draft letter which is most helpful WesternLancer and other contributors. I will review all this and redraft and also draft my letter of complaint to CX Trains.

BTW I am comfortable with risk - within reason!

 

[NelsonPK]

..sorry forgot to attach the ticket. now attached.

 

[WesternLancer]

All
Thank you again for all this detailed advice and options to consider. I have only just got back in and will contemplate the whole matter over the weekend. I now have it in my mind that there is a huge difference between the moral high ground and legal exactitude. You have presented both sides of this argument. When an event like this occurs it happens very quickly normally when one is caught off guard and the instant decisions one makes in the context of the argument may not be that well considered.
Someone has asked the name of the ticket I was issued. I attach a copy which I also forwarded to TIL. Note the time of issue 12.08 which means this train must have left Cheltenham a few minutes before. Equally I am convinced that the delayed link from Ashchurch was significantly later than the 7 minutes that has been recorded (it is not in the TOCs best interests to admit to the times of delays. Certainly the 11.42 train to Birmingham was well gone by the time I arrived).
I can certainly check my phone records for calls made between 11.30 and 12.00 noon on that day.
I raised the issue about the delays (not previously raised with TIL) because felt that if this does go to court TIL will do their homework and wonder why I was on the later train and not the earlier one.
Interestingly TIL have already sent me the senior railcard ts&cs. the salient points being
2.7 you must buy a ticket before boarding the train unless
2.7.1 There was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey.
In this case you will be able to use your railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.
So the question must be was Cheltenham my destination? No Birmingham was my destination. It does not say that one should but ones ticket at the earliest possible opportunity. Also I offered to purchase a ticket at Birmingham which according to the Ts&cs was in my rights to do so.
Please note that TIL have accepted in writing that my journey had commenced at Ashchurch. Therefore it is reasonable for a passenger to assume that one is entitled to buy a ticket with railcard at anytime during the journey. This was my assumption and has been the basis of my argument with TIL.

I have noted the editing of my draft letter which is most helpful WesternLancer and other contributors. I will review all this and redraft and also draft my letter of complaint to CX Trains.

BTW I am comfortable with risk - within reason!

Thanks Nelson - all noted, and yes good idea to mull over it over weekend and you have all the aspects of this now. In any letter for XC that is part of this I think you can draw heavily on your earlier draft to TIL esp in terms of how the matter was handled on board etc.

For what it is worth I suspect the National Conditions of Travel 'trump' the Railcard T&Cs and the debate about 'earliest opportunity to buy' is one that has been debated on this forum in other cases before including those that HAVE gone to court IIRC and hinged on it, which is why various posters have flagged it up with differing degrees / views. Obv the Railcard T&C do not conflict with that but the prosecutors will no doubt choose the conditions that most support their position and I think that will be the National Conditions of Travel.

Obv this runs the risk of starting off another tangential debate but it is clear that you have followed this in detail and appreciate the efforts people are taking to offer advice.

Good luck to you.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Yes, condition 1.2 of the railcard T&C’s state that where there is any discrepancy, the National Rail Conditions of Travel prevail. Whether this would pass a reasonableness test in court is another matter, as it’s not unreasonable for a holder to read the senior railcard conditions on ticket purchasing obligations and believe them to be complete, particularly given that the omission of the obligation to purchase at a station en route would be a relatively minor addition.

On that point alone, I think the OP would have a better chance of persuading a magistrate that he was led to believe that it was not necessary to purchase a ticket at Cheltenham. Quite helpful of TIL to point out the terms actually!