Til Mitigation (Child ticket)

[Nipa]

Im going to send this email and try to appeal to the human side of the company prosecutor. Please tell me opinions.

Dear Michael Keeber,



Thank you for your email on 4th October 2021.



I sincerely apologise for stating no comment to the questions asked by the officer that day. I was extremely worried and did not realise this would lead to more hassle on your end. In hindsight, I now know I should have been more open and honest.



As mentioned before in previous letters, I am aware that there have been other instances where I have travelled with an invalid ticket which I fully and wholeheartedly apologise for once again. I hope that you will be kind enough to allow me to pay back the full amount of these fares plus any administrative expenses incurred on your part.



The consequences of fare evasion are twofold to both myself and to Chiltern Railways. A criminal record would be detrimental to a second year university student like myself. And, lost revenue to Chiltern Railways could be used to maintain and improve the train services. And so, I have learnt a valuable lesson of honesty and integrity which I will put to use in the future



Once again, I sincerely apologise for travelling without valid tickets and request your leniency and compassion in this matter. Please allow me to settle the matter administratively and out of court if that would be possible by way of full payment of all the invalid tickets, administrative expenses and penalties you deem necessary.



Yours sincerely,

 

[WesternLancer]

Im going to send this email and try to appeal to the human side of the company prosecutor. Please tell me opinions.

Dear Michael Keeber,



Thank you for your email on 4th October 2021.



I sincerely apologise for stating no comment to the questions asked by the officer that day. I was extremely worried and did not realise this would lead to more hassle on your end. In hindsight, I now know I should have been more open and honest.



As mentioned before in previous letters, I am aware that there have been other instances where I have travelled with an invalid ticket which I fully and wholeheartedly apologise for once again. I hope that you will be kind enough to allow me to pay back the full amount of these fares plus any administrative expenses incurred on your part.



The consequences of fare evasion are twofold to both myself and to Chiltern Railways. A criminal record would be detrimental to a second year university student like myself. And, lost revenue to Chiltern Railways could be used to maintain and improve the train services. And so, I have learnt a valuable lesson of honesty and integrity which I will put to use in the future



Once again, I sincerely apologise for travelling without valid tickets and request your leniency and compassion in this matter. Please allow me to settle the matter administratively and out of court if that would be possible by way of full payment of all the invalid tickets, administrative expenses and penalties you deem necessary.



Yours sincerely,


Yes I tried to make a new post but the moderator or admin just merged it into this one. I was not the person that posted that they were stopped because they bought the ticket after getting off the train

I see nothing wrong with that draft really (and again no harm in sending a copy to Chiltern) - you may want to wait a few hours before sending it to them in case others make suggestions that could help.

 

[Nipa]

Thank you, will send it in a few hours

 

[Footynatic]

With regards to them claiming they have evidence @Nipa has done this in the past, is anybody aware what the process is in terms of Chiltern reclaiming this in court? Heard the 6 month rule often thrown around in here but not fully aware of how this would apply here?

 

[island]

Im going to send this email and try to appeal to the human side of the company prosecutor. Please tell me opinions.

If not sent already, it would be usual to write “Dear Mr. Keeber” when addressing someone you do not know in a formal correspondence.

 

[The Phoenix]

With regards to them claiming they have evidence @Nipa has done this in the past, is anybody aware what the process is in terms of Chiltern reclaiming this in court? Heard the 6 month rule often thrown around in here but not fully aware of how this would apply here?

They are able to use any previous incidents even those over several years under the Criminal Procedure Rules

7.3- (2) More than one incident of the commission of the offence may be included in the allegation if those incidents taken together amount to a course of conduct having regard to the time, place or purpose of commission

There are other precedents in this regard too.

That is provided the incident being reported is the one that identifies the incidents previously is within the time period of 6 months and is laid before the court before the time expires.

 

[skyhigh]

They are able to use any previous incidents even those over several years under the Criminal Procedure Rules

7.3- (2) More than one incident of the commission of the offence may be included in the allegation if those incidents taken together amount to a course of conduct having regard to the time, place or purpose of commission

There are other precedents in this regard too.

That is provided the incident being reported is the one that identifies the incidents previously is within the time period of 6 months and is laid before the court before the time expires.

It's unlikely, but if they were to choose to prosecute this as fraud there would also not be a six month deadline.

 

[The Phoenix]

It's unlikely, but if they were to choose to prosecute this as fraud there would also not be a six month deadline.

That's true but they could under section 11 and if the amount of loss is less than 1 k it could be dealt with by the Magistrates court.

 

[Nipa]

Update: Just been sent this email after directly emailing the TOC. Oh well, it was worth a try.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I should do next? Should I reply to it saying something like ‘that’s okay, I just wanted to directly apologise to Chiltern Railways since I genuinely am very remorseful and sorry’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Update: Just been sent this email after directly emailing the TOC. Oh well, it was worth a try.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I should do next? Should I reply to it saying something like ‘that’s okay, I just wanted to directly apologise to Chiltern Railways since I genuinely am very remorseful and sorry’.

Did you also send it to TIL? You need to do that.

 

[Darandio]

Update: Just been sent this email after directly emailing the TOC. Oh well, it was worth a try.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I should do next? Should I reply to it saying something like ‘that’s okay, I just wanted to directly apologise to Chiltern Railways since I genuinely am very remorseful and sorry’.

Not really, you aren't dealing with them. Any correspondence since that latter you posted on 1st October should be directed to TIL, that is who you are dealing with. Obviously Chiltern could have been copied into anything you send but repeatedly contacting Chiltern directly to apologise about something they are no longer handling is likely to fall on deaf ears.

 

[AlterEgo]

Update: Just been sent this email after directly emailing the TOC. Oh well, it was worth a try.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I should do next? Should I reply to it saying something like ‘that’s okay, I just wanted to directly apologise to Chiltern Railways since I genuinely am very remorseful and sorry’.

They don't want to hear from you. They're not dealing with your case.

Businesses like Chiltern do not get emotionally wounded by people who con them out of the fare; they just want their money back and to deter future offences and that's why they employ agencies like TIL. You should deal with TIL in all future correspondence.

 

[Nipa]

Did you also send it to TIL? You need to do that.

Yes I sent to TIL, currently awaiting their reply

I appreciate the responses but then I don’t get how some people on this forum have had success directly contacting the TOC? I’ve seen a few posts where they called up or wrote to the TOC despite TIL saying they see no reason to take further action.

 

[Darandio]

I appreciate the responses but then I don’t get how some people on this forum have had success directly contacting the TOC? I’ve seen a few posts where they called up or wrote to the TOC despite TIL saying they see no reason to take further action.

Have you got any examples? The last part of that makes little sense.

 

[Jackofspades]

Unfortunately the caution has it all”you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence” and by saying no comment you’ve done exactly that, harmed your defence. From what I’ve seen when people say no comment it requires extra work and investigating to be done and the prosecutors will be aiming for a prosecution from that and would normally be bang to rights and a straight forward prosecution, it couldn’t get any easier for them especially with history of it

 

[driverd]

Honest recommendation is to just cop for it now. Looks like they're not going to budge. Likely costs will be similar to an out of court settlement. Given this, is it even worth a solicitor? You've already admitted guilt, perhaps all they could offer is mitigation, but you certainly don't have a defense, per se.

In terms of criminal record, try not to worry too much. It'll be spent in no time, if that's the outcome. Unless you're studying law, the vast majority of employers will probably just see it as a silly teenage decision, that you clearly regret - and of course, once spent, it won't even be a concern.

Take it on the chin, I think is the verdict of most on here, at this stage.

 

[Nipa]

Unfortunately the caution has it all”you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence” and by saying no comment you’ve done exactly that, harmed your defence. From what I’ve seen when people say no comment it requires extra work and investigating to be done and the prosecutors will be aiming for a prosecution from that and would normally be bang to rights and a straight forward prosecution, it couldn’t get any easier for them especially with history of it

I only said no comment just cos I didn’t know what was going on and like I said I was very worried and confused. The officer also wasn’t very helpful when I asked him what was going on and also did say I can say no comment now and then change it later on if I have a lawyer or something but I was given no opportunity to even do so. I don’t get why they would aim for prosecution and need to do further investigation when I’ve literally admitted to everything in my letters. I gave detailed account of what I’ve done, what ticket I bought, what ticket I should have bought, other occasions etc etc. They clearly just didn’t read them though.

Honest recommendation is to just cop for it now. Looks like they're not going to budge. Likely costs will be similar to an out of court settlement. Given this, is it even worth a solicitor? You've already admitted guilt, perhaps all they could offer is mitigation, but you certainly don't have a defense, per se.

In terms of criminal record, try not to worry too much. It'll be spent in no time, if that's the outcome. Unless you're studying law, the vast majority of employers will probably just see it as a silly teenage decision, that you clearly regret - and of course, once spent, it won't even be a concern.

Take it on the chin, I think is the verdict of most on here, at this stage.

Yep that’s basically what I’m doing now. Just going to await my summons now :/ hopefully can maybe try to get an out of court settlement on the day though. But yes, u r correct, it does not look like they will budge unfortunately

Have you got any examples? The last part of that makes little sense.

Transport Investigations prosecuting me

But would it not work that way with any TOC as well given this is standard practice throughout whether over or under a tenner? As you point out it`s pretty daft on a ticket that is under a tenner and a pretty stupid idea to enable a click option on the eticket at the same time. One of many...

www.railforums.co.uk

Here this person called up cross country directly and managed to get an out of court settlement

 

[AlterEgo]

I only said no comment just cos I didn’t know what was going on and like I said I was very worried and confused. The officer also wasn’t very helpful when I asked him what was going on and also did say I can say no comment now and then change it later on if I have a lawyer or something but I was given no opportunity to even do so. I don’t get why they would aim for prosecution and need to do further investigation when I’ve literally admitted to everything in my letters. I gave detailed account of what I’ve done, what ticket I bought, what ticket I should have bought, other occasions etc etc. They clearly just didn’t read them though.

I think the first thing which is relevant is that you clearly and deliberately evaded the fare over multiple occasions. We’ve seen on this forum that people can still settle out of court even where the offences are more than just a one-off. However…

If the company settles with everyone out of court, the wider public don’t get to know the extent and consequences of fare evasion. That’s why, perhaps a few times a year, a train company will take a batch of people to court and convict them. It may well be that Chiltern are minded to do this; the attendant press coverage about how fare evasion really is a crime you can go to court for is useful for them, too.

 

[Jackofspades]

I only said no comment just cos I didn’t know what was going on and like I said I was very worried and confused. The officer also wasn’t very helpful when I asked him what was going on and also did say I can say no comment now and then change it later on if I have a lawyer or something but I was given no opportunity to even do so. I don’t get why they would aim for prosecution and need to do further investigation when I’ve literally admitted to everything in my letters. I gave detailed account of what I’ve done, what ticket I bought, what ticket I should have bought, other occasions etc etc. They clearly just didn’t read them though.


Yep that’s basically what I’m doing now. Just going to await my summons now :/ hopefully can maybe try to get an out of court settlement on the day though. But yes, u r correct, it does not look like they will budge unfortunately

Transport Investigations prosecuting me

But would it not work that way with any TOC as well given this is standard practice throughout whether over or under a tenner? As you point out it`s pretty daft on a ticket that is under a tenner and a pretty stupid idea to enable a click option on the eticket at the same time. One of many...

www.railforums.co.uk

Here this person called up cross country directly and managed to get an out of court settlement

The interview would have been a PACE interview so is no different to a police one, so unfortunately what you say during that will be used, again in the caution “anything you do say may be given in evidence” your time to admit it would have been during the interview.

 

[AlterEgo]

The interview would have been a PACE interview so is no different to a police one, so unfortunately what you say during that will be used, again in the caution “anything you do say may be given in evidence” your time to admit it would have been during the interview.

In the vast majority of fare evasion cases where people avail themselves of their right to avoid self-incrimination, they are able to secure an out of court settlement.

It is generally unwise to admit to wrongdoing or to say anything at all to someone when you don't have a solicitor present.

 

[6Gman]

I only said no comment just cos I didn’t know what was going on and like I said I was very worried and confused. The officer also wasn’t very helpful when I asked him what was going on and also did say I can say no comment now and then change it later on if I have a lawyer or something but I was given no opportunity to even do so. I don’t get why they would aim for prosecution and need to do further investigation when I’ve literally admitted to everything in my letters. I gave detailed account of what I’ve done, what ticket I bought, what ticket I should have bought, other occasions etc etc. They clearly just didn’t read them though.

Second point first, they almost certainly have read your letters. But decided nothing in them persuades them to change their course of action.

Which brings me to the first point. They are aiming for prosecution because despite being a second year student (so presumably 19 years old) you bought a child ticket - which shows clear intent AND you appear to have short-fared - which again shows clear intent.

So here they have - if I'm reading the case correctly - two different offences and evidence of previous offending. To put it bluntly, it's a slam dunk for them and if they want to discourage others of doing similar why wouldn't they prosecute?

Not sure there's much else you can do. You've tried, but they're determined to proceed.

 

[Darandio]

Here this person called up cross country directly and managed to get an out of court settlement

Fair enough but it's worth noting both cases are the equivalent of comparing apples and coal. On the other case it was seen as a one off incident where they have unintentionally (it's not for us to judge) refunded a valid ticket. In your case they know you have done this intentionally and on multiple occasions, making any comparison between the two it's perfectly clear which one has more chance of a settlement.

Whilst there was always a potentially limited chance in your direct apologies to Chiltern having some sort of impact it does seem like this ship has now sailed.

 

[driverd]

I'd also further add that if you travelled without a ticket and then bought both the wrong ticket and a shorter fare at Marylebone, not only is there the ticketing irregularity to deal with but you've actively sought to avoid paying a fare.

This, multiplied by occurances previously, is why they're prosecuting. In fairness, if viewed from the perspective of someone who pays full fare every day, I would hope you can see why?

Not to say I don't sympathise with the consequences being rather scary for you, but I think you could see why they're not budging?

When I was a guard, I always looked at it as, if you played the game, you had to accept the consequences. You played the game, you didn't accept the consequences... actually you kept playing by getting a short fare and a child one at that. So that's the reason they're coming down like a tonne of bricks.

Still - as I say, it won't be a life changing disaster, just learn from it and move on. Also, it may be worth mentioning to a solicitor, if you do choose to use one, that you were told you could "no comment" and later revise the statement, it'd probably be a mitigation should they try and use the failure to help enquiries as an aggrevating factor.

 

[The DJ]

Rather amazed that having done this before you are somehow expecting leniency in the form of an Out of Court Settlement. How can you convince the train company that you will not do it again? They are viewing prosecution as a legitimate deterrent - the ton of bricks approach - to persuade you not to try it again.

 

[Nipa]

Update: I called TIL and the lady said I should be receiving my summons pack within a few days. My hearing is 27th Oct. I have a few questions:

Does anyone know whether it is still possible to settle out of court now that I’ve received the summons and has anyone ever had success of settling on the day of court? Do I need to get legal representation to settle out of court on the day or can I do it myself? Does anyone have any recommendations as to which solicitor I should use?

 

[6Gman]

Update: I called TIL and the lady said I should be receiving my summons pack within a few days. My hearing is 27th Oct. I have a few questions:

Does anyone know whether it is still possible to settle out of court now that I’ve received the summons and has anyone ever had success of settling on the day of court? Do I need to get legal representation to settle out of court on the day or can I do it myself? Does anyone have any recommendations as to which solicitor I should use?

My understanding is that it is still possible to agree a settlement. No personal experience but I believe there have been cases reported on this Forum of settlements reached on the day. You can do it yourself though a solicitor might bring particular skills.

 

[Nipa]

Im thinking of sending one final to Transport Investigations. I’ve really written this one from the heart. Here it is:


Dear Transport Investigations,



I am writing today with regards to the summons pack I have received and my hearing on 27th October.



I understand that I have bought invalid tickets on numerous occasions throughout the period of September 2020 and April 2021. I know that this is a serious offence and against the law and I genuinely am very sorry.



Whilst by no means an excuse, I was made redundant from my part time job as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. Consequently, this prompted my foolish and grave mistake to try and pay for cheaper fares. I look back on this with shame and disgust as I realise now that this was very out of character and violates the values and morals I stand for. I have learnt my lesson, henceforth, I will always pay for a valid ticket and I deeply apologise once again.



This experience has taught me a valuable lesson of openness, honesty and integrity. I have grown from this and can thoroughly assure you with utmost confidence that this will never be a problem again. I have even told my friends, family and made posts online about the severity of fare evasion to raise awareness and deter others from making the same poor decisions that I have done.



As such, I ask you to please reassess my case with pity and kindness. Please consider the detrimental effects a criminal record will have on my future and further education. Please understand my remorse, contrition and regret in this situation. And please, allow me to settle the matter out of court by paying the full amount of the fares I have evaded as well as any extra administrative costs.



Yours faithfully,

 

[furlong]

That letter still misses the point in my opinion. Get a solicitor to help you.
(If it isn't obvious, amongst other things, you're still failing to account for why your first letter requesting a settlement was not open and honest about those previous occasions etc. Do you really expect them to believe you? It is getting a step closer to what might be needed though. Have you at any point worked out how many occasions there were in total? Any settlement would involve agreement on that aspect and the consequential number of fares still unpaid.)

 

[HSP 2]

Update: I called TIL and the lady said I should be receiving my summons pack within a few days. My hearing is 27th Oct. I have a few questions:

Does anyone know whether it is still possible to settle out of court now that I’ve received the summons and has anyone ever had success of settling on the day of court? Do I need to get legal representation to settle out of court on the day or can I do it myself? Does anyone have any recommendations as to which solicitor I should use?

You could ask the prosecution solicitor about an out of court settlement on the day, but if he/she says no, you may? be able to ask for an adjournment to get a solicitor.

A lot will depend on how much you have defrauded Chiltern Rail of. Is it one week or two years at uni.?

 

[Nipa]

@furlong i didnt post my first letter that I wrote in this forum, but I did mention that it was not the first time I had done it in the letter.

And if you are referring to why I said no comment in the interview, then that has already been explained in a previous letter and earlier in this forum