Time for a replacement vessel on Pentland Firth route in the Orkneys?

[Blindtraveler]

A neighbour who who isn't an enormous transport enthusiast but does take a passing interest is just back from his holidays to Orkney. He went up with pentland ferries and loved it but came back with NorthLink as he wanted to take advantage of the limited overnight accommodation on board the MV hamnavoe before the red I week day sailing




Whilst he appreciates his probably some money to be saved by my fleet commonality to an extent he can't help wondering if it's time for for a replacement vessel on the pentland firth NorthLink service with the hamnavoe transferred away to one of the other roots that is crying out for a larger vessel or even just a more modern one

I guess this would also provide NorthLink with the opportunity to increase cabin capacity for the overnight bed and breakfast offer which is very popular during the season in particular although I believe is available all year and as both ports are capable of handling a larger ship words mean that they could boost freight carrying capacity as well


Hamnavoe could have the cabins removed and additional lounge space created for one of the busy tourist routes where seating is at a premium

 

[kylemore]

A neighbour who who isn't an enormous transport enthusiast but does take a passing interest is just back from his holidays to Orkney. He went up with pentland ferries and loved it but came back with NorthLink as he wanted to take advantage of the limited overnight accommodation on board the MV hamnavoe before the red I week day sailing




Whilst he appreciates his probably some money to be saved by my fleet commonality to an extent he can't help wondering if it's time for for a replacement vessel on the pentland firth NorthLink service with the hamnavoe transferred away to one of the other roots that is crying out for a larger vessel or even just a more modern one

I guess this would also provide NorthLink with the opportunity to increase cabin capacity for the overnight bed and breakfast offer which is very popular during the season in particular although I believe is available all year and as both ports are capable of handling a larger ship words mean that they could boost freight carrying capacity as well


Hamnavoe could have the cabins removed and additional lounge space created for one of the busy tourist routes where seating is at a premium

Any resources should be used to expand the Pentland Ferries service between Gills Bay and St Margaret's Hope.

I would withdraw the Northlink service altogether and use the money to introduce RET and to help finance a second MV Alfred to double capacity.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Can't argue with that. I think if I recall correctly Andrew Banks of pentland ferries said a few years ago that he could carry every passenger for free if he got the level of subsidy that NorthLink do. Not sure if his view would still be the same but certainly a local business that has kept going through absolutely everything not least the weather and and continuing to maintain and upgrade its fleet serves some support

 

[BayPaul]

Any resources should be used to expand the Pentland Ferries service between Gills Bay and St Margaret's Hope.

I would withdraw the Northlink service altogether and use the money to introduce RET and to help finance a second MV Alfred to double capacity.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I really struggle to understand how the Scottish government justifies subsidising Scrabster - Stromness, especially since the fuel consumption is massively higher than Pentland Ferries

 

[cf111]

I don't think that the Hamnavoe would fit any of the ports on the West Coast so if she has a life beyond Northlink then it will be elsewhere.

The three Northern Isles vessels will be 20 years old this year, so I wonder if there will be a plan for fleet replacement within the next decade.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I thought I commented on this, but I didn't.

Anyway:

Yep, I'd agree with that. I really struggle to understand how the Scottish government justifies subsidising Scrabster - Stromness, especially since the fuel consumption is massively higher than Pentland Ferries

From talking to someone 'in the know', one consideration is that Thurso is far more accessible than Gills Bay. One option could be to create a passenger-only Thurso-Scapa (outside Kirkwall) ferry while tendering for a car ferry service between any two ports on the mainland and on the Orkney mainland. It's about 29 nautical miles from Thurso to Scapa, or realistically about 2 hours by passenger ferry. Scrabster-Stromness is 90 minutes, but the extra 30 minutes would allow a town centre to town centre service.

I don't think that the Hamnavoe would fit any of the ports on the West Coast so if she has a life beyond Northlink then it will be elsewhere.

Loch Seaforth is marginally bigger, isn't it? There would be a lot of logic behind having Hamnavoe alongside Loch Seaforth on Ullapool-Stornoway, I think.

 

[cf111]

Loch Seaforth is marginally bigger, isn't it? There would be a lot of logic behind having Hamnavoe alongside Loch Seaforth on Ullapool-Stornoway, I think.

Yes the Loch Seaforth is ever so slightly wider and longer than the Hamnavoe. She may well be able to berth at Ullapool and Stornoway with no, or minor
amendments to the infrastructure. I can't find details of the Loch Seaforth's draught online but that's not to say it would be an issue.

In terms of bigger picture on the West Coast, the Loch Seaforth can only fit at the ports she serves at the moment and the Isle of Lewis had to be adjusted so that she could berth at Castlebay. IoL is also tidally restricted at Uig so that makes it difficult to have her operate from there. Moving the Hamnavoe to Ullapool might not have too positive effect on the network as a whole.

One further restriction on the Hamnavoe would be that she has an enclosed car deck so couldn't carry certain dangerous freight. Her bigger sisters and the Isle of Lewis are the same in that regard.

It's an interesting one as there's some life in the Hamnavoe yet. Hjaltland and Hrossey have had a much tougher shift on the Aberdeen run but they are in no means in bad shape.

 

[BayPaul]

I thought I commented on this, but I didn't.

Anyway:



From talking to someone 'in the know', one consideration is that Thurso is far more accessible than Gills Bay. One option could be to create a passenger-only Thurso-Scapa (outside Kirkwall) ferry while tendering for a car ferry service between any two ports on the mainland and on the Orkney mainland. It's about 29 nautical miles from Thurso to Scapa, or realistically about 2 hours by passenger ferry. Scrabster-Stromness is 90 minutes, but the extra 30 minutes would allow a town centre to town centre service.



Loch Seaforth is marginally bigger, isn't it? There would be a lot of logic behind having Hamnavoe alongside Loch Seaforth on Ullapool-Stornoway, I think.

That approach would be similar to Gourock to Dunoon, which has never struck me as a great model for how to do things. Scrabster isn't all that accessible, being 1.5 miles from Thurso Station. And Scapa pier is a similar distance from Kirkwall - both walkable, but would need a bus for those who find walking that far a challenge.
It strikes me that the most economical and practical approach would be a through bus from Thurso to Kirkwall via the Pentland Ferries route, and ideally with Pentland given access to Burwick, allowing sub hour crossings. With a 30 minute bus ride on each end, that's a pretty decent connection.

Yes the Loch Seaforth is ever so slightly wider and longer than the Hamnavoe. She may well be able to berth at Ullapool and Stornoway with no, or minor
amendments to the infrastructure. I can't find details of the Loch Seaforth's draught online but that's not to say it would be an issue.

In terms of bigger picture on the West Coast, the Loch Seaforth can only fit at the ports she serves at the moment and the Isle of Lewis had to be adjusted so that she could berth at Castlebay. IoL is also tidally restricted at Uig so that makes it difficult to have her operate from there. Moving the Hamnavoe to Ullapool might not have too positive effect on the network as a whole.

One further restriction on the Hamnavoe would be that she has an enclosed car deck so couldn't carry certain dangerous freight. Her bigger sisters and the Isle of Lewis are the same in that regard.

It's an interesting one as there's some life in the Hamnavoe yet. Hjaltland and Hrossey have had a much tougher shift on the Aberdeen run but they are in no means in bad shape.

I agree. Trying to fit her on the west coast is a bit like finding places to use 442s - just because an asset exists doesn't mean its suitable. The size limits on West Coast ports are tight, and I really can't see that calmac need another over-sized ferry. Better to sell her and buy/build something more suitable. I find it hard to imagine (though I'll admit I have no local knowledge) that Isle of Lewis operates anywhere near capacity, given that she can carry about 80% of the entire population of the island she serves, so I'd have thought building a smaller and more economical ferry for Barra, and moving her back to Stornoway would be a better method of increasing capacity to Lewis if needed.

 

[cf111]

That approach would be similar to Gourock to Dunoon, which has never struck me as a great model for how to do things. Scrabster isn't all that accessible, being 1.5 miles from Thurso Station. And Scapa pier is a similar distance from Kirkwall - both walkable, but would need a bus for those who find walking that far a challenge.
It strikes me that the most economical and practical approach would be a through bus from Thurso to Kirkwall via the Pentland Ferries route, and ideally with Pentland given access to Burwick, allowing sub hour crossings. With a 30 minute bus ride on each end, that's a pretty decent connection.

I agree. Trying to fit her on the west coast is a bit like finding places to use 442s - just because an asset exists doesn't mean its suitable. The size limits on West Coast ports are tight, and I really can't see that calmac need another over-sized ferry. Better to sell her and buy/build something more suitable. I find it hard to imagine (though I'll admit I have no local knowledge) that Isle of Lewis operates anywhere near capacity, given that she can carry about 80% of the entire population of the island she serves, so I'd have thought building a smaller and more economical ferry for Barra, and moving her back to Stornoway would be a better method of increasing capacity to Lewis if needed.

Barra in the summer is very popular, in part because now you can get all the way to Lewis from the mainland via Barra in the car with only three ferries required: Oban-Castlebay/Ardmhòr-Erskay/Berneray-Leverburgh. Indeed on Wednesdays in the summer, the Oban-Coll/Tiree service operated by MV Clansman extends to Castlebay.

The Barra route is exposed to the weather in a way a lot of the other Calmac services aren't, so having one of the largest and most powerful vessels on the sailing does make sense. In an ideal world there would perhaps be another ferry built for Barra, but given the state of the fleet I think Isle of Lewis is where she should be as things stand. The Isle of Mull and the Lord of the Isles provide adequate cover in the winter but they are utilised from Oban and Mallaig respectively in the summer and the Isle of Lewis is unsuitable for Mallaig, Craignure and Lochboisdale.