Timekeeping on the Ffestiniog

[topydre]

The one time I did the line we left Porthmadog on time but lost time gradually heading north and must have got to Caernarfon about 15 minutes late. Going back we were on time from Caernarfon to Rhyd Ddu but then had to wait the best part of half an hour for a late-running train coming the other way to vacate the single-track section. That meant we missed the path over the flat crossing on the approach to Porthmadog and had to wait to be allowed across. It's a shame they don't do delay repay.

I and some friends were recently on a Welsh Highland service that arrived back to Caernarfon 2 hours late (quite an exception as I understand it). I joked with the guard about delay repay, but we received a 1/3 refund without even asking for it! It seems all the other passengers received the same. Brilliant trip though.

 

[WAB]

The WHR has issues with service recovery, in that there are no diesels available as thunderbirds which can haul the full-length service train at line speed, let alone with a crippled Garratt. Once the thunderbird has been dispatched, the time it takes to reach the failed train can be up to an hour along with additional delays caused by the single line token having to be moved by road (the electric token system is still in the process of being commissioned). You then have to contend with losing the path at Cae Pawb, awaiting a platform at Porthmadog, and waiting for late running trains at loops.

Loco failures can have further impacts on future days. Until recently, only two Garratts were in traffic at any one time, so any failure required double-heading by default with the associated performance issues.

All in all, it's a complex railway to keep running to time!

 

[John Luxton]

I paid an unexpected visit to the FR last Thursday. It was my final day of my Explore Wales pass and I had not intended to visit. However, I discovered my train from Chester was running a bit early and would just connect with the mid morning Conwy Valley Line service so I hopped off at Llandudno Junction with a view to catching the 11:40 from Blaenau Ffestiniog the service marketed as the Quarryman. There is only about a 6 minute connection window at Blaenau.

However, Conwy Valley was on time to Dolgarrog - but a few minutes were lost as someone one had loaded bike in the wrong door for alighting at Dolgarrog and some faffing was required to get it to the door which opened on to the short platform.

I shot off the train promptly at Blaenau. It appeared I wasn't the only person changing. There was also a hiker with a large rucksack and and another couple. There was a queue on the ticket office with people buying sweets and things not tickets thus with departure time approaching found the guard, showed him my membership card and asked if he could issue a ticket, he told me to join the train and he would come around later.

I noted that there appeared to be two coach parties on the train, their coaches had been in the bus parking spaces by the bus stop.

The train overall was well loaded but there were four armchair seats in the observation car.

Train actually departed at 11:50.

Guard came round mid journey to sort my tickets out I said to him "Why isn't the train timed to depart a little later to make the connection less rushed?" He laughed and said "We had better not go down that road!" Thus I took it I am not the only one to have commented on this point.

Anyway Porthmadog was reached about on time. Coach parties appeared to be mainly one way, however, they appeared to be replaced by another party going the other way.

Return trip time keeping was fine departing Porthmadog around 15:05, however, the train was very well loaded and BLANCHE was struggling to get from just after Boston Lodge Halt to Lotties Crossing - the train barely moving. It did seem odd that BLANCHE was tasked with this obviously busy and heavy train, whilst MERDDIN EMRYS was on the Tanybwlch shuttle. At one point I thought BLANCHE was going to expire and I was wondering about the return connection from Blaenau. Fortunately on the return there is just over one hour connection time.

The train did get going again but at Minffordd I could hear the fireman on the phone to control reporting serious wheel slip. After that things ran okay and Blaenau was reached about 15 minutes down.

Perhaps it isn't just coaches that cause delays but using underpowered locos on heavy trains whilst sending off the more powerful ones on short line shuttles?

 

[TrainTrackJack]

Perhaps it isn't just coaches that cause delays but using underpowered locos on heavy trains whilst sending off the more powerful ones on short line shuttles?

The purpose of a double engine on the Woodland Wanderer service is to give crews a longer day, following David Lloyd Georges return to traffic.
The morning Spirit Double Engine now powers the afternoon Wanderer, and vice versa with the 2nd double with the same crew on 1 engine all day.
Prior to this where only Merddin was in traffic, Merddin would do both Spirit trains with a crew change mid-day in Porthmadog.

There is also a tendency to not keep Double Engines at Glan-y-Pwll overnight, as they can often run  very low on coal following lighting up in the morning, with no real facilities to facilitate coaling at Blaenau.

 

[John Luxton]

The purpose of a double engine on the Woodland Wanderer service is to give crews a longer day, following David Lloyd Georges return to traffic.
The morning Spirit Double Engine now powers the afternoon Wanderer, and vice versa with the 2nd double with the same crew on 1 engine all day.
Prior to this where only Merddin was in traffic, Merddin would do both Spirit trains with a crew change mid-day in Porthmadog.

There is also a tendency to not keep Double Engines at Glan-y-Pwll overnight, as they can often run  very low on coal following lighting up in the morning, with no real facilities to facilitate coaling at Blaenau.

Thanks for the explanation of why it is done - but the point is BLANCHE was clearly struggling perhaps one carriage too many or perhaps assisted with a diesel.

 

[william.martin]

I was on the WHR harbour master the other day using Garrat 87 which gained some faults (one where the safety valve got jammed open and one something to do with the brakes that involved using duck tape,) this meant that when we passed Garrat 143 at Ryd Ddu (excuse spelling) that got delayed by about 15 minutes as there is no wiggle room, in my head they need to do what the 'big railway' does any have pathing allowances at certain locations.

 

[WAB]

I was on the WHR harbour master the other day using Garrat 87 which gained some faults (one where the safety valve got jammed open and one something to do with the brakes that involved using duck tape,) this meant that when we passed Garrat 143 at Ryd Ddu (excuse spelling) that got delayed by about 15 minutes as there is no wiggle room, in my head they need to do what the 'big railway' does any have pathing allowances at certain locations.

Pathing allowance is not the same as performance allowance, but I get your point. Normally, the ex-Porthmadog service has an extended dwell at Rhyd Ddu which serves a similar purpose, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to extend a 2.5 hour one-way trip even more.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Shop owners often overestimate how many of their customers arrive by car - this issue comes up frequently when towns table motor traffic restrictions. I wonder if the FR might likewise think more of its passengers drive than actually do?

 

[williamn]

Shop owners often overestimate how many of their customers arrive by car - this issue comes up frequently when towns table motor traffic restrictions. I wonder if the FR might likewise think more of its passengers drive than actually do?

It feels a bit like they schedule the trains with poor connections to National Rail and then say ‘but no one comes by National Rail!’.

 

[John Luxton]

It feels a bit like they schedule the trains with poor connections to National Rail and then say ‘but no one comes by National Rail!’.

Four people, me included changed at Blaenau on Thursday, one person with rucksack in the morning - did not see that person on return but the other two went back on the 17:39 to Llandudno as I did.

That's just a weekday outside of the school holidays. If we are going to encourage people to use cars less heritage railways that do have connections with mainline services need to ensure connections work well and there is some wiggle room in the connection should something go wrong either on Network Rail or on the heritage line itself. The FR is a viable day trip visit from Merseyside / Manchester / Cheshire by rail if connections are good.

In my earlier post today I commented on how BLANCHE suffered severe wheel slip on the 15:05 to Blaenau. I note from an image posted on a Facebook group today that the Blaenau train was double headed BLANCHE and VALE OF FFESTINIOG on June 19.

 

[williamn]

Four people, me included changed at Blaenau on Thursday, one person with rucksack in the morning - did not see that person on return but the other two went back on the 17:39 to Llandudno as I did.

That's just a weekday outside of the school holidays. If we are going to encourage people to use cars less heritage railways that do have connections with mainline services need to ensure connections work well and there is some wiggle room in the connection should something go wrong either on Network Rail or on the heritage line itself. The FR is a viable day trip visit from Merseyside / Manchester / Cheshire by rail if connections are good.

In my earlier post today I commented on how BLANCHE suffered severe wheel slip on the 15:05 to Blaenau. I note from an image posted on a Facebook group today that the Blaenau train was double headed BLANCHE and VALE OF FFESTINIOG on June 19.

interesting - I was on a train hauled solely by Blanche too that ran behind schedule (though they said this was because of a preceding late train ahead of us) and had to perform a very sharp stop because a part fell off the loco on the way back to Blaenau!

 

[william.martin]

In my head all trains that do the full Porthmadog to Blaenau (or in the opposite direction) should either be a double Fairlie or 2 of the little locos (E.G blanche and Linda or Welsh Pony and Prince.)

 

[philthetube]

That depends on whether you care about your reputation as perceived by the general public, or are only focussing on coach-trip cash. Forget "just one or two spotters." The people on coaches won't know what the times should have been or what they have paid (probably much less cash per head than the innocent punters expecting a train journey to a timetable to fit in with other public transport links.) Likely they have ignored "back on board" times earlier in the day, which is why the coach is late.

This sort of thing has happened to me before and infuriates me too - if i go for a train and miss it because I am late I don't expect everyone else on the train to have to wait just for me! How many other people's schedules and plans are wrecked by a train waiting for a coach? If the coach company aren't professional enough to be able to time their journey stages including recovery time then they shouldn't be in business - or should be called out by trains departing on time and the coach catching it up if it can. If people miss their trip that is the coach company's fault, not the railway's, and it's their reputation which should suffer.

how many times will a coach company allow their reputation to suffer before saying sod this, coaches can be delayed in ways which are not the operators fault.

Incidentally it doesn't just appear to be a UK quirk. I did a cruise to Norway about 10 years ago as one of the calls was at Flam and appeared an easy way of visiting the Flamsbana. One of the options advertised for the cruise was a trip on the railway - but again it was one way by train. Having visited the railway web site I realised a round trip from Flam was easily possible within the shore time. Not only was it cheaper than the package offered to the cruise passengers one got to do the railway both ways. It might be argued by some people only want to do a journey one way - but I think its a poor one as I like to sit one side of the train going in one direction and on the other coming back as one gets to see different things.

Besides it is a very unprofessional thing to do if you do not keep to schedules. If the coach misses the train it is the coach company at fault. If a railway connects with one or more other railway lines as does the Ffestiniog they should try to keep to advertised times.

Flam is a capacity issue, if return trips were offered by operators they could only sell half as many.

as mentioned above, as with trains it is not always the operators fault.

 

[John Luxton]

how many times will a coach company allow their reputation to suffer before saying sod this, coaches can be delayed in ways which are not the operators fault.

Flam is a capacity issue, if return trips were offered by operators they could only sell half as many.

as mentioned above, as with trains it is not always the operators fault.

Looking at it from a coach passenger point of view only getting a single is a bit of short change. I felt miffed when I ended up on a one way short line journey to Talyllyn as a child in the 70s would still feel miffed today.

Years ago our local branch of the World Ship Society offered members a trip to Ullswater Steamers. The coach hire firm presumed we wanted a drop off at one end and pick up at the other.

We told them we wanted 6 hours at Glenridding so people can do their own thing. This one way trip must be built into coach operator psyche!

In the end we did allow them to drop us at Pooley Bridge but that was because we could squeeze in an extra sailing and people could do more than one round trip.

 

[philthetube]

On the Ffestiniog or elsewhere, if the coach operator states what the trip involves there is no room for complaint, I have never done a uk coach/rail journey but I can tell you from experience on different cruises that if you book a trip on the Flam railway you would know what you are getting. With a bit of pre trip research you could book tickets in advance and get the return for half the price.

When you hire a coach you tell the company what you want, if they have to presume things then they have not been given adequate instructions.

 

[SCH117X]

Locos on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland are (meant to be) limited to the amount of coaches they can haul. I have seen a list somewhere and the ratings for the WHR services are half those of the FR ones hence the use of two double fairlies on a WHR special when a single double fairlie would be tasked with the same rake on the FR.

 

[WAB]

Locos on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland are (meant to be) limited to the amount of coaches they can haul. I have seen a list somewhere and the ratings for the WHR services are half those of the FR ones hence the use of two double fairlies on a WHR special when a single double fairlie would be tasked with the same rake on the FR.

Yes, the double fairlies can only handle around six carriages on the WHR IIRC. FR locos have been run on the WHR above their carriage rating, but they can't keep to time (even ignoring the need to follow the timetable, it extends an already long journey) and I don't think it does the locos much good either.