Timekeeping on the Settle & Carlisle and Leeds - Lancaster

[70014IronDuke]

My impression from looking at RTT of late is that timekeeping on these lines has deteriorated in the past month, most particularly affecting the morning commuter trains into Leeds.

2H81, the 05.51 off Carlisle has repeatedly lost 5 - 10 minutes after Settle, regains a minute or so at Skipton, but tends to end up 8 - 15 late into Leeds, presumaly down to lost path?

today it was 7 down into Leeds.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62084/2019-10-30/detailed

The late running then appears to hold up 2H54, the 06.48 Lancaster - Leeds, which should follow about 10 mins behind the Carlisle train. But its delays get magnified after Skipton. It was 18 down into Leeds today, and a whopping 27 yesterday.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60376/2019-10-29/detailed

In addition, the morning down commuter into Carlisle has also been losing time of late, typically 5-10 mins, and most of this is after Kirkby Stephen.

I get the impresssion other services on these lines are also performing more poorly, but it seems not consistently - some trains just seem to keep time.

During the day, Lancaster - Leeds seems to be worse than the S&C. Trains seem to be frequently, if randomly, 10-15 late into their destinations, with the Lancaster - Morecambe run subject to not infrequent cancellation (if the train is scheduled to continue).


Obviously there are probably a package of reasons, but the question I'd like to pose to locals on the ground is, why? I suspect some could be leaf fall, but notice quite a few extended station stops towards the end of these runs, eg a 30 second timing becomes 1 or 1 1/2 mins, ditto a 1 min schedule becoming 2 or 2 1/2. These, of course, all add up. Is this because of increasing passenger usage causing longer dwell times? And why in the past month? Perhaps people are more reluctant to drive or cycle some trips (say, Gargrave - Skipton) in the darker autumn weather, and switch to train?

 

[scrapy]

If the disruption is mainly over the last month it's likely due to leaf fall. Its likely that punctuality will improve from mid November.

 

[randyrippley]

You're going over a lot of badly drained ground over that route, any chance of speed restrictions due to watelogging given the recent two months of rain?

 

[Spartacus]

Reminds me of my mate's favourite band: http://www.mostly-autumn.com/2/

 

[High Dyke]

Looking at the specific train mentioned 3 minutes were lost to leaf-fall, whilst a number of minutes lost are classed as under threshold. The final loss into Leeds was seemingly due to a faulty Cl.195 unit.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You're going over a lot of badly drained ground over that route, any chance of speed restrictions due to watelogging given the recent two months of rain?

Understood this is one possible factor - but then, why aren't all trains late in roughly equal measure?

 

[Neptune]

The S&C is one of the worst routes affected by leaf fall due to gradients, weather, exposed conditions etc.... It always suffers during leaf fall but unlike the Penistone Line there is no leaf fall timetable for the route.

 

[jamesst]

Understood this is one possible factor - but then, why aren't all trains late in roughly equal measure?

It's amazing how much it can change from hour to hour or even train to train.
I can drive over a route at 6am and struggle, the next day go over the same time with no problem but then struggle on lates.

 

[trainmananthon]

The early train seems prone from Carlisle seems prone to losing time along the route at this time of year. Most of it as others have said is purely down to leaf fall. Even on the afternoon trains today and on Sunday, the train struggled to gain traction leaving most stations.

 

[LowLevel]

Class 158s are notoriously light footed during leaf fall conditions, they really struggle to get away from stations.

 

[Stampy]

When I was up in Morecambe the other Saturday for football, there was a "bone-shaker" running a Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham - Morecambe - Lancaster shuttle service, as the trains from Leeds were that late, they were terminating at Preston....

Luckily I went via the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was up in Morecambe the other Saturday for football, there was a "bone-shaker" running a Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham - Morecambe - Lancaster shuttle service, as the trains from Leeds were that late, they were terminating at Preston....

That's a different Leeds service, that one never runs through to Morecambe plus some Lancaster-Morecambe(-Heysham) shuttles. The one that does is the Bentham Line (awful name - surely they could come up with a better one!).

 

[Chris M]

The one that does is the Bentham Line (awful name - surely they could come up with a better one!).

I did that last Friday (Skipton-Lancaster and return) and my father was asking about the name. Other than it runs through Bentham (at which station the name is the least prominent and seems to have no particular claim to significance for the line) I couldn't come up with a good answer.

 

[trainmananthon]

The one that does is the Bentham Line (awful name - surely they could come up with a better one!).

I tend to call it either the South Dales line or the Bowland Forest line.

The Bentham line just sounds boring to me!

 

[yorksrob]

I call it the Little North Western, as that was the name of the larger section of it between Skipton and Wennington.

Was well used a few Saturdays ago by Bradford fans away to Morecambe !

 

[Ianigsy]

1649 Leeds-Carlisle running 20-25 minutes late due to a fault on the unit(s) - caused a bit of mayhem at Leeds as the Airedale passengers deserted it for the next Skipton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tend to call it either the South Dales line or the Bowland Forest line.

The Bentham line just sounds boring to me!

It sounds nasty. Almost like you'd name a line through some rough suburbs and scrapyards. Like, say, the Greenford branch or something.

I like "South Dales line" myself, I thought of that too. The other one works too. But when I first saw "Bentham Line" on one of those user group signpost things (at Hellifield, I think) I just thought "how incredibly awful, let's not bother going there". I'm sure Bentham is nice as most of the villages down that way are, but it doesn't sound nice, and line names are all about marketing.

It's almost like calling the Conwy Valley Line the "Slate Slagheaps Line" or something.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The one that does is the Bentham Line (awful name - surely they could come up with a better one!).

Little North Western here too.

 

[janb]

Variety of reasons for delay on Morecambe-Leeds at various times such as,
As you mentioned the 0648 is specifically delayed by the preceding S+C service
Speed restriction due to Bentham landslip
Points failure at Shipley
Following late running trains, reacting to a points failure at Bradford Forster Square
Total loss of signalling of Skipton-Leeds
Broken down train blocking line
Negotiating way in and out of Lancaster station, delayed by late running WCML trains
Signalling at Lancaster
Disruptive passengers on other trains
Congestion at Leeds
Unit being trapped in a platform at Leeds
Unit swap at Leeds

 

[xotGD]

1649 Leeds-Carlisle running 20-25 minutes late due to a fault on the unit(s) - caused a bit of mayhem at Leeds as the Airedale passengers deserted it for the next Skipton.

Not quite - we were advised to get off just as the 16.56 Skipton was pulling out, so all crossed over for the 17.18.

Naturally the Carlisle unit got sorted, and left before it. Grrr!

 

[Chris M]

When I used it last Thursday evening the Skipton train was delayed so everyone piled on to the Morecambe train - which was short formed. Not helped by the LNER from London (on which I arrived) pulling in late on the adjacent platform about 2 minutes before the Skipton train was scheduled to leave from the far side of the station so most people (me included) also chose the longer distance train.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It's amazing how much it can change from hour to hour or even train to train.
I can drive over a route at 6am and struggle, the next day go over the same time with no problem but then struggle on lates.

Okey dokes. Thanks for this and others who have commented.

Class 158s are notoriously light footed during leaf fall conditions, they really struggle to get away from stations.

OK, but the interesting thing is that, looking on RTT, the general pattern seems to indicate trains lose time more on the downhill sections. This appears in part to be down to longer dwell times, but could, I suppose, also include more difficult braking conditions.
I'm sure there are instances of trains losing time on the climbs, of course. I've not done any strict study - this is from cursory observations.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Little North Western here too.

Strictly speaking, I thought the Little North Western applied to the now closed section through Ingleton to Low Gill, on the LNW.

 

[jimm]

I tend to call it either the South Dales line or the Bowland Forest line.

The Bentham line just sounds boring to me!

As there are large parts of the Yorkshire Dales that are a lot further south and the line just skirts the northern edge of the Forest of Bowland AONB for a short distance at Wennington, in what way is either description appropriate? Both would be pretty misleading to the average person.

Bentham is an identifiable location and one known worldwide, at least in firefighting circles, as the home of the Angus Fire factory, which is right next to the station.

Strictly speaking, I thought the Little North Western applied to the now closed section through Ingleton to Low Gill, on the LNW.

Not really. It was a generic name for the entire North Western Railway ('Little' to distinguish it from the London & North Western Railway), including the line from Clapham to Lancaster via Hornby (which was closed beyond Wennington in the 1960s). It was probably the shenanigans at Ingleton in 1861-62, with passengers having to get off trains and walk between the Midland and the LNWR stations, that linked that route with the Little North Western in people's minds.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I think this is correct.

 

[30907]

South Dales is vague (and inaccurate west of Settle Jn); Bowland is stretching a point or two; how about the Ingleborough line? It's a bit far to walk, but the views are good (if the cloud's not down and the drizzle has stopped, of course ☺).

 

[trainmananthon]

South Dales is vague (and inaccurate west of Settle Jn); Bowland is stretching a point or two; how about the Ingleborough line? It's a bit far to walk, but the views are good (if the cloud's not down and the drizzle has stopped, of course ☺).

To be fair to what I said, there are plenty of lines named after something they either only partly run through or aren’t relevant all together to the lines name.

Example: Calder Valley line (Man Vic - Leeds via Bradford) only actually runs through the Calder Valley for part of the
route.

Ingleborough line sounds nice, but you could argue that it only passes within a few miles of it - that’s like me calling my local line (the Colne branch) the Pendle Hill line because it runs vaguely near Pendle Hill.

Could call it the Wenning Valley line, as it follows the river Wenning for a fair length of the route. Sounds a little nicer than the Bentham line but not as good imo as South Dales/Bowland Forest/Ingleborough line.

Okey dokes. Thanks for this and others who have commented.



OK, but the interesting thing is that, looking on RTT, the general pattern seems to indicate trains lose time more on the downhill sections. This appears in part to be down to longer dwell times, but could, I suppose, also include more difficult braking conditions.
I'm sure there are instances of trains losing time on the climbs, of course. I've not done any strict study - this is from cursory observations.

From past experience, they slip and slide a lot at Settle and Horton, more so when braking going down the gradient, especially the section from Stainforth tunnel to Settle.

Lazonby and Armathwaite are also bad with all the trees in that area too. Sometimes takes a fair few attempts to actually get going especially in mornings before the RHTT has run and in drizzly conditions.

 

[30907]

Example: Calder Valley line (Man Vic - Leeds via Bradford) only actually runs through the Calder Valley for part of the route.

Ingleborough line sounds nice, but you could argue that it only passes within a few miles of it - that’s like me calling my local line (the Colne branch) the Pendle Hill line because it runs vaguely near Pendle Hill.

Calder Valley covers Halifax/Mirfield - Summit Tunnel which is a good chunk of the route.

Pendle Line would be OK (never called it Pendle Hill when I lived in Great Harwood!) as it's in Pendle District - but East Lancs covers rather more.

I'm not particularly keen on Ingleborough BTW.

 

[johnnychips]

Let’s stir some more stuff in the pot: what is the objection to the term ‘Bentham’? After all the line passes through it, and it’s somewhere between Settle Junction and Lancaster. But then how do you pronounce it? Bent-ham or Ben-tham? Is there a objection that Jeremy Bentham was a radical philosopher, shares his name with Corbyn and his body is apparently still on display! Sure we’re OT here, but I didn’t start it

 

[randyrippley]

Ben-tham
The station is actually at High Bentham
which is higher up the hill than Low Bentham

And if you want a name for the line, call it the Wenning-Aire line after the two river valleys it follows
Or if you want something short and snazzy...........the Gap Line, after the route between the watersheds known as the Wenning-Aire gap