Timetable complaint - to Network Rail?

[Greenback]

Tizzy, if you don't like the change at Crewe, then change somewhere else. I happen to prefer that way of getting to Scotland, though I have sometimes deliberately taken the route via the East Coast for a change, or I've gone via London when I'v ehad the time. I've never tried Cardiff to Birmingham and changing there, but maybe I will some day.

There are alternatives, but naturally they may suit you even less than the Crewe one.

 

[sprinterguy]

whats wrong with the man?

Indeed, there's just no pleasing some people!

 

[SwindonBert]

I am sure Network Rail & all the TOCs would appreciate help in organising a timetable that's got a convenient connection for every possible connection

I think that's what Tizzy's asking for...

 

[Deepgreen]

I wonder if the OP's moniker was chosen just for this thread?!

 

[The Planner]

I have chuckled at this one, if it was left at the orginal post it might not have smacked at social media OUTRAGE and Daily Mail comments section.

 

[notlob.divad]

On a serious note, to make something out of this thread. Is there an official way to flag up potential timetable issues between different operators? Do you flag it to the TOCs involved? The ORR, the DfT?

My particular issue is the 2247 from Wigan North Western to Liverpool on Sunday night. It makes the minimum connection time for the 2nd last train from London (just) but leaves Wigan too early to make from both the last Birmingham train and the last Glasgow train. Whilst I wouldn't ask for it to be delayed 40 mins to make the last London train (but it would be fantastic) I do feel running it 10/12 minutes later, the same time that the weekday and Saturday last train runs, would be hugely beneficial to people who use stations on the line all the way to Liverpool allowing them to connect from. The last train from places north of Preston

 

[steamybrian]

As a former timetable planner I have also chuckled at this one.
Seen it before and filed in the category of..
"Why can't the timetable be altered to suit me?"
signed
Disgusted of xxxxxx

 

[Bald Rick]

On a serious note, to make something out of this thread. Is there an official way to flag up potential timetable issues between different operators? Do you flag it to the TOCs involved? The ORR, the DfT?

TOC of the train concerned and, as it is the last train of the day, the Specifcying authority (the DfT in this case). The latter because the franchise agreement will specify the earliest time the last train on any route can run.

Forgive me though - there appears to be a 2331 on Sundays.

 

[notlob.divad]

Forgive me though - there appears to be a 2331 on Sundays.

No forgiveness required you are perfectly right. I had not even considered the last Sunday train being later than the last weekday service. That is very interesting thank you for pointing it out. I guess I must have missed it as I always put in journey finders arriving at my local station by 23:45. Thank you for pointing this out to me, you have made any future weekend trips away more accessible.

 

[Bald Rick]

No forgiveness required you are perfectly right. I had not even considered the last Sunday train being later than the last weekday service. That is very interesting thank you for pointing it out. I guess I must have missed it as I always put in journey finders arriving at my local station by 23:45. Thank you for pointing this out to me, you have made any future weekend trips away more accessible.

Here to serve

 

[Hadders]

On a serious note, to make something out of this thread. Is there an official way to flag up potential timetable issues between different operators? Do you flag it to the TOCs involved? The ORR, the DfT?

I've contacted TOCs on three occasions about timetable amendments.

London Midland eased the time of trains arriving at Rugby by a minute to allow an official connection into the Trent Valley services from Northampton.

GWR altered the departure time of the early morning train Llanelli- Paddington train (0430ish iirc) by a couple of minutes so it made an official connection with the service from Fishguard Harbour.

Then there's GTR.....

The 0622 service from Kings Cross used to be timetabled to arrive at Peterborough at 0738 giving an official connection into the 0746 VTEC service to Edinburgh (this connection is very useful for passengers needing to travel from stations between Hitchin and Huntington to stations north of Peterborough).

GTR amended the arrival time to 0739 a couple of years ago (they added a minute to loads of trains at the same time) so the connection was broken. Interestingly there was no change to the working timetable.

I complained to GTR and got a cut and paste reply so I escalated it. Their response was 'we would never time our trains to connect with those of another operator).

So much for Britain's train companies working together. About right for GTR though.

 

[Bantamzen]

As a former timetable planner I have also chuckled at this one.
Seen it before and filed in the category of..
"Why can't the timetable be altered to suit me?"
signed
Disgusted of xxxxxx

Dear steamybrian,

Why can't the timetables of the Leed-Bradford FS & Bradford FS - Ilkley be changed for me? Before Apperley Bridge opened I could catch the Leed-Bradford and have about 2-3 minutes to change at Shipley onto the Bradford FS - Ilkley. Now the former usually arrives a minute after the latter, meaning either 30 minute wait for the next one, or catching the Leeds-Skipton and having a 15 minute wait (and a longer walk to P3).

Signed disgusted of Baildon......

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Assuming you have a flexible ticket (ie not one which ties you to the Hereford route), I would have though the safest route was:
Virgin Glasgow to Birmingham (arr xx05)
XC Birmingham-Cardiff (dep xx30, arr xx26)
ATW Cardiff-Swansea (dep xx40, arr xx34)

After all that you get to board the same ATW service you would have caught at Crewe (your problematic 10 minute connection), at Cardiff.
But you do have 25 minutes at New St to admire the scenery or do some shopping, and another 14 at Cardiff for your valid through ticket to be rejected (twice) in the barriers as you visit the concourse. :cry:
Personally, I would prefer the Hereford route every time.

This is one change at New St.
You can also catch the xx17 from there to Bristol Parkway arr xx30 and change there, but you will not get to Cardiff/Swansea any earlier than if you went on the xx30 direct train.
All these routes are available on the Off Peak Return (also via York), and there are effectively no time restrictions (2T).
Pretty good options, I'd say.

 

[greatkingrat]

The 0622 service from Kings Cross used to be timetabled to arrive at Peterborough at 0738 giving an official connection into the 0746 VTEC service to Edinburgh (this connection is very useful for passengers needing to travel from stations between Hitchin and Huntington to stations north of Peterborough).

GTR amended the arrival time to 0739 a couple of years ago (they added a minute to loads of trains at the same time) so the connection was broken. Interestingly there was no change to the working timetable.

I complained to GTR and got a cut and paste reply so I escalated it. Their response was 'we would never time our trains to connect with those of another operator).

So much for Britain's train companies working together. About right for GTR though.

This is one of the drawbacks of the Delay Repay system. It provides an incentive for TOCs to break connections to avoid having to pay out large amounts of compensation to people travelling across the country, even though the original train was only a few minutes late.

 

[Carntyne]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

Their PPM is sitting at 91.2% for the month so far, seems pretty punctual to me.

Also, it's the TOC & Network Rail along with the DfT who have an input in designing the timetable. Amongst others.

 

[AlterEgo]

Their PPM is sitting at 91.2% for the month so far, seems pretty punctual to me.

Also, it's the TOC & Network Rail along with the DfT who have an input in designing the timetable. Amongst others.

PPM is not a useful measure for determining whether trains are on time at intermediate stations for connections.

 

[Hadders]

This is one of the drawbacks of the Delay Repay system. It provides an incentive for TOCs to break connections to avoid having to pay out large amounts of compensation to people travelling across the country, even though the original train was only a few minutes late.

I suspect it's cock up rather than conspiracy. The problem is actually getting someone sensible to understand the problem and do something about it.

The reality is the WTT makes the connection and the train almost always arrives early compared to the public time table.

If anyone on here works for GTR perhaps they could escalate it to someone who could sort it?

 

[Tizzy]

I'm not sure why you haven't responded to some of the views, in particular those suggesting to travel via a different route.

Far more productive than a shouty rant I find.

Not wishing to appear shouty - it's my understanding that the route via Birmingham costs more (I'll check). Besides involving two changes.

My OP was an enquiry about who is responsible for designing timetables, which industrious googling has failed to discover.

My underlying point is that the railway system, collectively, sells tickets for a journey purporting to take a particular time, but in reality the journey frequently takes an extra hour (or in the worst case an extra 90 minutes).

The refund of part of the fare is better than a poke in the eye, etc., but doesn't help with the need to check progress at every station from Preston, or the decision about whether to leap off the train and haul a case up and over the bridge like a maniac, resign yourself to the extra hour's wait, or, perhaps half the time, calmly change platforms and wait for the few minutes for the connection.

I have flown a few times - I'm sure you know that brings a whole extra set of connection challenges (the destination is Swansea, not Cardiff).

Finally, as this IS my last appearance, I expected this to be a forum frequented by people with a mass of knowledge of the workings of the railway system, here for serious discussion, and I hoped to tap into that knowledge. This being the internet I really should have known better than to attempt facetiousness or hyperbole. Nevertheless, it has been fun - and informative, if not in the way I'd hoped.

 

[CheeseOnToast]

Network Rail ultimately "publish" the timetable, individual operators have commercial aspirations and obligations, both sides work together to come up with the best plan possible. The trick is to try and accommodate everything, some get what they want, some has to be a compromise. There's a lot at play, Part D of the Network Code demonstrates how tricky it is if you've ever tried fathoming it out, processes to follow, rights, who is entitled to what.

 

[LAX54]

Oddly at weekends when there are far fewer passengers, then the service runs a lot better, there is no one holding doors for their chums to catch up, or holding doors open whilst they have a chat and say good-bye, or getting on station 30 seconds before its due to go etc etc
so yes trains run late due to train failures, track circuit failures, and a multitude of reasons...also they run late due to passengers making them late !

 

[CheeseOnToast]

Oddly at weekends when there are far fewer passengers, then the service runs a lot better, there is no one holding doors for their chums to catch up, or holding doors open whilst they have a chat and say good-bye, or getting on station 30 seconds before its due to go etc etc
so yes trains run late due to train failures, track circuit failures, and a multitude of reasons...also they run late due to passengers making them late !

Trains can run late due to others running early!

Re developing the timetable it's the old saying... you can't please all the people all the time. Also worth checking out a Track Access Agreement on the ORR website, seek out Schedule 5 and those tables details what operators have to abide by then add in the Timetable Planning Rules and Engineering Access Statement.