TIR Advice Please

[sunny25]

Hi,

I’m looking for some advice regarding a TIR I was issued. I took a train with an off-peak ticket with the 16-25 railcard discount applied, as I believed I had a valid railcard at the time of purchase.

A few minutes after the train departed, either a conductor/Revenue Protection Officer requested tickets to be scanned. My ticket was scanned and they asked for my railcard. I then realised I did not have this with me. Hence, they asked for my details which I provided, issued the TIR and asked me to send proof of my railcard to them for review.

I have previously had a railcard for 2 years consecutively, but did not renew this last year as did not use the train often. However, I had hand surgery a few months prior and have been using the train often to travel to follow up appointments. I therefore asked a family member to renew my railcard on my behalf (could not do this myself as could not use hand) and they said they would. I subsequently spoke to them after the TIR was issued and they told me that they had forgotten to renew the railcard at which point I panicked.

I accept full responsibility for my error and have since renewed the railcard myself. I have not received any letter from TPE as of yet but understand that I will have to write to them back with my version of events. However, I am concerned that the officer will have noted that I stated I have a railcard (and they asked me twice) when I did not (although I did not know this at the time).

This is the first time this has happened and I have been paying full fare for any tickets purchased after I chose to not renew my railcard last year. Is the best course of action to wait for the letter and respond explaining the above as it is the truth? I am keen to settle this out of court and am more than happy to pay any outstanding fares and administrative costs.

Could I please be given some advice for the above? Thank you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Given that you need to carry the railcard with you every time you travel, on what basis did you think you actually did have a railcard? How many discounted fares have been used, with no railcard to support the discount?

 

[AndroidBango]

I therefore asked a family member to renew my railcard on my behalf (could not do this myself as could not use hand)

How were you buying your tickets?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@sunny25. Welcome to the forum. What will possibly happen next is that TransPennine Express will write to you in due course. Would imagine that they'll threaten to take you to court for travelling without a valid ticket, which you didn't have, as you didn't have an accompanying, valid, in date railcard.

Likely, though, that TPE might say that the matter can be sorted out without going to court by you paying them some money, probably the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fare for the journey you were making when stopped. (You've not said what this journey was). In addition, TPE might well add on a three figure sum towards their investigation and admin costs.

Complication will be if you've previously been purchasing other inappropriately discounted tickets by some online method, using the likes of Trainline, perhaps. If you have, you could also get asked to pay the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fare for each and every one of these previous journeys. Costly if they've been long distance.

When you do receive the letter from TPE (presume you gave a correct name and address and aren't planning on moving anytime soon) maybe you could upload a copy of same on here with your name, address and case reference number (if any) suitably obscured.

Good luck, but this could all prove to be a tad expensive.

 

[sunny25]

Given that you need to carry the railcard with you every time you travel, on what basis did you think you actually did have a railcard? How many discounted fares have been used, with no railcard to support the discount?

This didn’t happen a few months ago, I travelled last week paying a full fare with no railcard discount. After that, I decided to renew my railcard due to using trains more often. A family member said they’d renew it for me a few days before this happened on Thursday. Only one discounted fare had been used with no railcard which was when I was issued with the TIR. I totally understand it was my lack of oversight, however this was the first occasion in which this has happened.

How were you buying your tickets?

On Trainline and I am aware they will likely check my history on Trainline but I have been paying the full fare since my railcard expired last year until this one incident on Thursday when I thought I had the railcard but didn’t. I did have a railcard for 2 years before this and had purchased discounted fares whilst I had a valid railcard though.

 

[AndroidBango]

This didn’t happen a few months ago, I travelled last week paying a full fare with no railcard discount. After that, I decided to renew my railcard due to using trains more often. A family member said they’d renew it for me a few days before this happened on Thursday. Only one discounted fare had been used with no railcard which was when I was issued with the TIR. I totally understand it was my lack of oversight, however this was the first occasion in which this has happened.


On Trainline and I am aware they will likely check my history on Trainline but I have been paying the full fare since my railcard expired last year until this one incident on Thursday when I thought I had the railcard but didn’t. I did have a railcard for 2 years before this and had purchased discounted fares whilst I had a valid railcard though.

Okay - but I don't understand why you couldn't renew your railcard because of your hand surgery and had to ask someone to do it for you, but you were able to buy tickets.

Not trying to get at you, but the TOC will surely ask about that apparent inconsistency (in other words, relying on it as a reason/excuse may not be advisable).

 

[sunny25]

@sunny25. Welcome to the forum. What will possibly happen next is that TransPennine Express will write to you in due course. Would imagine that they'll threaten to take you to court for travelling without a valid ticket, which you didn't have, as you didn't have an accompanying, valid, in date railcard.

Likely, though, that TPE might say that the matter can be sorted out without going to court by you paying them some money, probably the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fare for the journey you were making when stopped. (You've not said what this journey was). In addition, TPE might well add on a three figure sum towards their investigation and admin costs.

Complication will be if you've previously been purchasing other inappropriately discounted tickets by some online method, using the likes of Trainline, perhaps. If you have, you could also get asked to pay the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fare for each and every one of these previous journeys. Costly if they've been long distance.

When you do receive the letter from TPE (presume you gave a correct name and address and aren't planning on moving anytime soon) maybe you could upload a copy of same on here with your name, address and case reference number (if any) suitably obscured.

Good luck, but this could all prove to be a tad expensive.

Thank your for responding.

I have been purchasing tickets via Trainline however I have been paying full fare for any tickets purchased since my railcard expired last year until this incident occurred on Thursday when travelling from Huddersfield to Leeds (when I thought I had the railcard but didn’t). I had a railcard for 2 years before this and purchased discounted fares but I did have a valid railcard for all purchases during this period.

I’m happy to pay any outstanding fare and administrative costs. I was just wondering if anyone experienced in this knows the likely outcome of this based on the circumstances please? Thank you.

Okay - but I don't understand why you couldn't renew your railcard because of your hand surgery and had to ask someone to do it for you, but you were able to buy tickets.

Not trying to get at you, but the TOC will surely ask about that apparent inconsistency (in other words, relying on it as a reason/excuse may not be advisable).

I understand why it may look like that, however my hand has been in a cast and I had some complications following surgery which I had been stressed about over this past week. In the original thread I stated “asked”, though it was more like I mentioned renewing my railcard and they offered to do it to make things easier for me. It may not be advisable but it’s the truth. Also, I was told to upload my railcard using the details on the TIR, which I later realised I couldn’t do. Unfortunately, I’ve already submitted a ticket explaining what sounds really stupid but is the truth.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. TPE will almost certainly offer you an out of court settlement to resolve this, expect to pay the cost of the full Anytime fare for the journey you made with no credit given for the ticket you did purchase, along with an admin fee which can be up to £150. If I'm reading this correctly you've already uploaded something to their forgotten railcard portal saying you didn't have a railcard so they might just offer you an out of court settlement based on this.

Alternatively, they might write separately saying they have received a report, are considering prosecuting and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed.

Let us know what you hear fromm TPE and we can then advise next steps.

 

[sunny25]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. TPE will almost certainly offer you an out of court settlement to resolve this, expect to pay the cost of the full Anytime fare for the journey you made with no credit given for the ticket you did purchase, along with an admin fee which can be up to £150. If I'm reading this correctly you've already uploaded something to their forgotten railcard portal saying you didn't have a railcard so they might just offer you an out of court settlement based on this.

Alternatively, they might write separately saying they have received a report, are considering prosecuting and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed.

Let us know what you hear fromm TPE and we can then advise next steps.

Thank for your response, I’m really grateful!

Looking at other threads, TPE usually send the letter out pretty quickly after the TIR is issued. I just wondered if they would send this as soon as they get round to it, or if they’ll wait the 21 days for me to send the railcard to them and then issue this after the 21 day period? I’ll let you know once I hear from TPE but haven’t had experience with this previously and want to settle this as soon as possible if given the opportunity to do so.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@sunny25. If it's definitely just the one problem journey, then I reckon you'll probably get asked to pay the £7.40 Anytime Day Single fare due (= Huddersfield to Leeds?) plus an admin fee as @Hadders has already mentioned.

 

[sunny25]

@sunny25. If it's definitely just the one problem journey, then I reckon you'll probably get asked to pay the £7.40 Anytime Day Single fare due (= Huddersfield to Leeds?) plus an admin fee as @Hadders has already mentioned.

Yes, I’ve checked my ticket history on Trainline and this is the first (and last) occasion this happened.

Does anyone know how long it usually takes for TPE to send the letter asking for my version of events please? Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Did you get a chit saying to upload your railcard to a portal?

If so, you might want to upload a short letter instead explaining the situation and asking if they will settle out of court. Sometimes they’ll act on such a letter, sometimes they send their standard ‘we’ve received a report…’ letter that you’ll need to reply to.

 

[sunny25]

Yes, on the TIR it said to refer to their support page and find the link to upload the railcard. Instead of that I opened a ticket via the portal and explained I can’t provide this, why this is the case, accepting full fault and requesting an out of court settlement if possible. I got an automated email after this saying it can take 21 days for them to respond. They may have already started processing the case and may not have reviewed my correspondence with them, so I’ll either wait for them to respond to the ticket or respond to the letter if I receive this. Either way, I’ll send the response I receive from them. Thank you for your help with this!

 

[Haywain]

I got an automated email after this saying it can take 21 days for them to respond.

That doesn't mean it will take 21 days though, it just sets a realistic expectation. Be patient.

 

[sunny25]

Hi, I've received the letter from TPE asking for my version of events. I've drafted a response for this that I will post on Monday. The advice on other threads is to keep the letter short, concise and apologetic. However, I think I need to explain the issue with the railcard since it is more than likely they will look into my Trainline history, notice that I was paying full fare until last week and probably query this. I understand I would need to phrase it in a way that doesn't appear as an excuse but more as the context that led to the situation. Would this be correct?

 

[sunny25]

Dear TransPennine Debt Recovery,

I am writing in response to the Travel Irregularity Report that I received in relation to my journey on the 05th of September 2024.

I had purchased an off-peak ticket with a 16-25 railcard. The railcard discount was applied as I believed I had a valid railcard at the time of purchase. I was asked to present the railcard for inspection when my ticket was scanned. I told the officer that I had a valid railcard although I did not have this with me and co-operated fully with the officer to provide my details.

A family member was due to renew my railcard on my behalf a few days prior to the incident. This was due to having hand surgery two months prior and not being able to use my hand due to a longer than expected recovery period. Hence, I told the officer that I had a railcard when questioned and was told to send a copy of this via the portal for review.

I subsequently discussed this with the individual as aforementioned and was made aware that they had forgotten to renew my railcard. This is not an excuse for my actions but has been provided merely as context in which the incident occurred. I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere apologies for my lack of oversight that led to this incident.

I recognise this was my error and accept full responsibility for this. I also understand my responsibility to pay the correct fare and the financial implications of my actions. However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to resolve this matter outside of court and am more than happy to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs incurred by TransPennine Express in dealing with this matter.

Please note that I have also since renewed my railcard and can provide proof of this if required. To clarify, I previously had a railcard for two consecutive years. I renewed this after a period of not having a railcard but paid the correct fares during the time I did not have a railcard.

Thank you for your consideration and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[30907]

I had purchased an off-peak ticket with a 16-25 railcard. The railcard discount was applied as I believed I had a valid railcard at the time of purchase. Following surgery, I was unable to use a computer and a family member had offered to renew my railcard for me. I have now checked and discovered this had not been done.
I was asked to present the railcard for inspection when my ticket was scanned. I told the officer that I had a valid railcard although I did not have this with me and co-operated fully with the officer to provide my details.

A family member was due to renew my railcard on my behalf a few days prior to the incident. This was due to having hand surgery two months prior and not being able to use my hand due to a longer than expected recovery period. Hence, I told the officer that I had a railcard when questioned and was told to send a copy of this via the portal for review.

I subsequently discussed this with the individual as aforementioned and was made aware that they had forgotten to renew my railcard. This is not an excuse for my actions but has been provided merely as context in which the incident occurred.

There is no need to go into detail - I think the sentence I have added in bold covers the struck-through paragraphs sufficiently, though obviously you may need to tweak it,

I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere apologies for my failure to check lack of oversight that led to this incident.

Keep it short!

 

[sunny25]

There is no need to go into detail - I think the sentence I have added in bold covers the struck-through paragraphs sufficiently, though obviously you may need to tweak it,

Keep it short!

@30907 Thank you for cutting out parts and making it shorter. Please could you take a look at the amended letter. I'm really grateful, thank you.

Dear TransPennine Debt Recovery,

I am writing in response to the Travel Irregularity Report that I received in relation to my journey on the 05th of September 2024.

I had purchased an off-peak ticket to travel with a 16-25 railcard. The railcard discount was applied as I believed I had a valid railcard at the time of purchase. Following hand surgery, I was unable to use a computer and a family member had offered to renew my railcard on my behalf. I have checked with them after the Travel Irregularity Report was issued and discovered this had not been done.

However, I had told the officer that I had a valid railcard when questioned although I did not have this with me and was told to send a copy of this for review. I would like to express my sincere apologies for my failure to check that led to this incident.

I recognise this was my error and accept full responsibility for this. I also understand my responsibility to pay the correct fare and the financial implications of my actions. However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to resolve this matter outside of court and am more than happy to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs incurred by TransPennine Express in dealing with this matter.

Please note that I have also since renewed my railcard and can provide proof of this if required. To clarify, I previously had a railcard for two years and renewed this after a period of not having a railcard. The correct fares were paid during the period in which I did not have a railcard, however.

Thank you for your consideration and I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[30907]

Looks OK to me.

On reflection, I would delete the bits about your previous history. Wait till they come back to you asking about it - keep it simple

Please note that I have also since renewed my railcard and can provide proof of this if required. To clarify, I previously had a railcard for two years and renewed this after a period of not having a railcard. The correct fares were paid during the period in which I did not have a railcard, however.

 

[sunny25]

Looks OK to me.

On reflection, I would delete the bits about your previous history. Wait till they come back to you asking about it - keep it simple

@30907 I've amended the bits that you recommended to cut out. Thank you for taking the time to look over this

I've attached a copy of the final letter below. I'd appreciate if anyone else has any further advice for this. If not, I'll post this on Monday. Thank you once again!

Dear TransPennine Debt Recovery,

I am writing in response to the Travel Irregularity Report that I received in relation to my journey on the 05th of September 2024.

I had purchased an off-peak ticket to travel with a 16-25 railcard. The railcard discount was applied as I believed I had a valid railcard at the time of purchase. Following hand surgery, I was unable to use a computer and a family member had offered to renew my railcard on my behalf. I have since checked with them after the Travel Irregularity Report was issued and discovered this had not been done.

However, I had told the officer that I had a valid railcard when questioned although I did not have this with me and was told to send a copy of this for review. I would like to express my sincere apologies for my failure to check that led to this incident.

I recognise this was my error and accept full responsibility for this. I also understand my responsibility to pay the correct fare and the financial implications of my actions. However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to resolve this matter outside of court and am more than happy to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs incurred by TransPennine Express in dealing with this matter. Please note that I have also since renewed my railcard and can provide proof of this if required.

Thank you for your consideration and I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[30907]

No problem, but give it 24hours in case anyone else wants to chip in.

 

[John R]

It looks pretty good to me.

 

[MrJeeves]

If it was me, and this was in fact the only occasion of not having the Railcard, I would preemptively attach evidence of both my previously held Railcards as well as my newly purchased Railcard after this incident to prevent any delay if they choose to look into your purchase history, and also to help to back up the claim that you really did intend to renew the Railcard.

Of course, no need to do this yet as they haven't asked about anything other than the date in question, and the letter looks good to me.

 

[antharro]

It's looking good other than this line:

"However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to resolve this matter outside of court and am more than happy to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs incurred by TransPennine Express in dealing with this matter."

I've never thought it good practice to tell the TOC what you're willing or not willing to pay. Instead:

"However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to deal with this out of court, am I am more than happy to pay whatever TransPennine Express feels is reasonable to resolve this matter."

Apart from that, it's good to go.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It's looking good other than this line:

"However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to resolve this matter outside of court and am more than happy to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs incurred by TransPennine Express in dealing with this matter."

I've never thought it good practice to tell the TOC what you're willing or not willing to pay. Instead:

"However, I would be grateful for the opportunity to deal with this out of court, am and I am more than happy to pay whatever TransPennine Express feels is reasonable to resolve this matter."

Apart from that, it's good to go.

Just correcting a typo: but also to express a little doubt about the wording. I am fully on board that it's not a great idea to try to tell the railway what to do - but 'I will pay whatever you think is reasonable' does feel rather like opening your wallet and saying 'help yourself'.

But realistically, I don't think it will matter all that much: what the railway wants is co-operation, and I would expect them not to be too fussed about the wording as long as it shows that the OP is engaging with the process. I would be happy with either the original or revised words.

 

[antharro]

@Fawkes Cat I mean, it pretty much is. The choice is pretty much "take whatever the TOC offers" or "see the TOC in court". I just don't like the idea of saying "I'll pay this and this" - it's too close to telling the TOC how the OP wants to settle. It should be seen (imo) as the OP saying "I'll pay whatever it takes to keep this out of court", just a bit more diplomatically worded! Thanks for spotting the typo!

 

[Titfield]

But realistically, I don't think it will matter all that much: what the railway wants is co-operation, and I would expect them not to be too fussed about the wording as long as it shows that the OP is engaging with the process. I would be happy with either the original or revised words.

It is an interesting point as to how much specific wording influences TOCS as opposed to the more general thrust of the meaning ie cooperation, contrition, commitment to paying the correct fare in the future,

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it is possible to overthink this. Just write in plain English. They mostly just want their money anyway, not for you to commit seppuku.

 

[Hadders]

@Fawkes Cat I mean, it pretty much is. The choice is pretty much "take whatever the TOC offers" or "see the TOC in court". I just don't like the idea of saying "I'll pay this and this" - it's too close to telling the TOC how the OP wants to settle. It should be seen (imo) as the OP saying "I'll pay whatever it takes to keep this out of court", just a bit more diplomatically worded! Thanks for spotting the typo!

I always recommended the wording 'I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus your administrative costs in dealing with the issue'. It leaves some room for interpretation by the TOC but admin fees should be proportionate and reasonable. My view is it can look desperate if you say 'I'll pay whatever it takes...'. And what do you do if they say 'pay us £10,000' when the fare avoided was only a low value?

We have had considerable success over the years with my preferred form of wording.

 

[sunny25]

I always recommended the wording 'I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus your administrative costs in dealing with the issue'. It leaves some room for interpretation by the TOC but admin fees should be proportionate and reasonable. My view is it can look desperate if you say 'I'll pay whatever it takes...'. And what do you do if they say 'pay us £10,000' when the fare avoided was only a low value?

We have had considerable success over the years with my preferred form of wording.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, they are most appreciated!

I added the last section regarding the outstanding fare/admin costs based on this being advised on other threads by @Hadders.

If anyone else has any suggestions, please let me know. Otherwise I’ll post this and keep you updated. Thanks again.


Hi,

Just wanted to update you that TPE offered a settlement of £142.40 (£7.40 fare and £135 admin). The turnaround was pretty quick considering they received the letter yesterday. This has been paid and is now closed. Thank you to everyone for your assistance, in particular @30907, @Mcr Warrior and @Hadders. I’m ever so grateful!