TIR on 22nd January-still no letter

[momomom]

Hi,
Very new to this so forgive me.
My daughter was issued with a travel card for the year (train and bus) on 10th Oct 2018-This was sent through the post and was the first time she (or we) have used a travel card.
She used it from that date with no problem on both the bus and rail network.
On Tuesday January 22nd she was travelling on a Crosscountry from Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street at 08:15 when a guard (conductor) said the ticket was invalid because she had not attached a photo. She also said it wasn't my daughters and issued her with a TIR and took the ticket. She gave my daughter a number( turns out it was customer services for Crosscountry) and to ring. She rang the number that lunch time but was told it was no longer in their hands and to wait for a letter-we were told 7 working days.
We have not received any letter and despite ring crosscountry are just told to wait. My question is how long do we wait? I understand that my daughter should have included the photo and accept that we have to pay the fine but we can't do anything till a letter comes.
Crosscountry won't give us anyone else to contact and in the meantime my daughter is paying £12 a day to travel. She was told she will get that back and to keep receipts.
Where can we go from here?
Thank you for any advice
Karen

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,
Very new to this so forgive me.
My daughter was issued with a travel card for the year (train and bus) on 10th Oct 2018-This was sent through the post and was the first time she (or we) have used a travel card.
She used it from that date with no problem on both the bus and rail network.
On Tuesday January 22nd she was travelling on a Crosscountry from Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street at 08:15 when a guard (conductor) said the ticket was invalid because she had not attached a photo. She also said it wasn't my daughters and issued her with a TIR and took the ticket. She gave my daughter a number( turns out it was customer services for Crosscountry) and to ring. She rang the number that lunch time but was told it was no longer in their hands and to wait for a letter.
We have not received any letter and despite ring crosscountry are just told to wait. My question is how long do we wait? I understand that my daughter should have included the photo and accept that we have to pay the fine but we can't do anything till a letter comes.
Crosscountry won't give us anyone else to contact and in the meantime my daughter is paying £12 a day to travel. She was told she will get that back and to keep receipts.
Where can we go from here?
Thank you for any advice
Karen

These matters can take a number of months to resolve, so you may have quite a while longer to wait.

How did your daughter obtain her travel card, and what kind of travel card was it? Was she informed of any conditions applying to the use of the ticket, e.g. in terms that were agreed to?

 

[momomom]

Hi,
It was a Adult West Midlands Travel Card which she bought online. She is 18 and just started working so need to travel from home to Birmingham. It was for the year and we got the zone 1-5 anytime-it started mid October and was in daily use from that time. I believe she agreed to the terms and conditions on the website. The conductor asked to see her ticket during the train journey and when my daughter couldn't produce a photo ID asked for proof it was her ticket. My daughter wasn't able to do so and the conductor retained the ticket because she believed that it wasn't my daughters.
As I said earlier if she should have had photo ID then we are at fault but we have no way of contacting the company who now have her ticket-Crosscountry say it is no longer their concern but will not furnish us with details on who else to contact.
How long can 'they' hold her ticket before contacting us?
Sorry, if I haven't answered your question clearly-as I say we are new to all this

 

[Clip]

It can take months for this to be followed up as ForTheLoveOf has mentioned.

The problem I see here is that Im guessing your daughter clicked the button that says she agrees to the T&Cs of using the pass and didnt read them? For just about all season tickets you require a photocard and I cant see this being any different im afraid. This doesnt help of course but for the future she will need to read what she is agreeing too.

Your only option is to sit tight and wait for them to write to your daughter and maybe buy her an interim pass with photocard so she doesnthave to pay more than she should until they decide what to do.

 

[Clip]

Finally found the T&Cs for you
https://nxbus.co.uk/files/legal/WestMidlandsTravelcardandSmartcardJuly2014.pdf

A Season Ticket is not valid unless it is accompanied in the Wallet by a Photocard, (if required) the number of which appears on the Season Ticket in the space provided

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,
It was a Adult West Midlands Travel Card which she bought online. She is 18 and just started working so need to travel from home to Birmingham. It was for the year and we got the zone 1-5 anytime-it started mid October and was in daily use from that time. I believe she agreed to the terms and conditions on the website. The conductor asked to see her ticket during the train journey and when my daughter couldn't produce a photo ID asked for proof it was her ticket. My daughter wasn't able to do so and the conductor retained the ticket because she believed that it wasn't my daughters.
As I said earlier if she should have had photo ID then we are at fault but we have no way of contacting the company who now have her ticket-Crosscountry say it is no longer their concern but will not furnish us with details on who else to contact.
How long can 'they' hold her ticket before contacting us?
Sorry, if I haven't answered your question clearly-as I say we are new to all this

They can hold the ticket for as long as they like, as it is ultimately the belonging either of the train company or of the West Midlands Public Transport Executive (I believe now known as the West Midlands Combined Authority). But they must reimburse any costs that they have caused you to incur from the seizing of the season ticket, once all is said and done.

If you try and buy the ticket again online (assuming the process hasn't changed), do the terms tell you that you need a photocard?

 

[gray1404]

They will have passed this to another company called Transport Investigations Limited to deal with. I have to say Cross Country Guards sound very ruthless at the moment and like they are out to report people. Don't really hear of other train company guards taking details so often, normally just the ticket inspectors that do that. TIL is the company that Cross Country have outsourced the work related to ticking irregularities to. They have up to 6 months to issue proceedings in court (not that I am saying they will, or will not do that) so you could be waiting some time. He practice though people often hear back after a month or two.

 

[momomom]

Hi, Yes it does-that the ticket can only be used in conjunction with a photocard.
So have they taken the ticket because it's invalid or because it maybe fraudulent-eg stolen?

 

[momomom]

Thank you ForTheLoveOf, Clip and gray1404 for all your info and help. As you say Clip, she clicked at carried on-teenagers who know everything!

 

[js1000]

I wouldn't hold your breath. It's usually anywhere from a month to 3 months before you hear anything back. Of course, this is dependent on how many cases they are dealing with and which ones need to be prioritised. (i.e. the ones getting close to the 6 month deadline and where a fine cannot be claimed back through the magistrates). Given this was only a couple of weeks ago it'll be in a "queue" as such.

 

[momomom]

Thanks for all your help. We heard from TIL on the 22nd Feb. They asked for mitigation but received a letter today which said no valid ticket was presented when asked. First offence so £84.90 in admin or proceed to Magistrates. As you all explained she did break T and Cs so will pay Now to try and get refund on the £60 plus a week she's been paying per week since ticket was taken.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for all your help. We heard from TIL on the 22nd Feb. They asked for mitigation but received a letter today which said no valid ticket was presented when asked. First offence so £84.90 in admin or proceed to Magistrates. As you all explained she did break T and Cs so will pay Now to try and get refund on the £60 plus a week she's been paying per week since ticket was taken.

Make sure you pay the settlement before you try and recover the additional fares paid.

 

[momomom]

Make sure you pay the settlement before you try and recover the additional fares paid.

Used the online payment system they helpfully supplied.

 

[momomom]

Received an email today to say that we will not be reimbursed for any cost involved with retaining season ticket. Could anyone advise on what to do next. We paid the ‘fine’ already. Thank you

 

[221129]

Received an email today to say that we will not be reimbursed for any cost involved with retaining season ticket. Could anyone advise on what to do next. We paid the ‘fine’ already. Thank you

Not really a lot you can do.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Received an email today to say that we will not be reimbursed for any cost involved with retaining season ticket. Could anyone advise on what to do next. We paid the ‘fine’ already. Thank you

Well, your options here are pretty much limited to taking legal action over the matter. It may be worth obtaining legal advice from a solicitor. An initial consultation should be free or very low cost, and ought to give you an idea of whether or not you have any kind of case to make. It isn't necessary to use a solicitor to make the actual claim (unless your claim is for more than £10k you are unlikely to see the costs of a solicitor back) but taking advice on the potential of a claim could be worthwhile.

 

[221129]

I don't see how there is any possible case tbh.

 

[furlong]

Have they returned the ticket or not? How much money is involved?

 

[furlong]

Crosscountry won't give us anyone else to contact and in the meantime my daughter is paying £12 a day to travel. She was told she will get that back and to keep receipts.

Follow up then on the basis of that agreement that those costs will be returned in this particular case, if that was promised.

 

[robbeech]

Indeed you said at the time that they told you those costs would be reimbursed. Is this in writing anywhere?
At what point did they send the valid ticket back to you?

 

[momomom]

Apologies for nor replying sooner. I was trying to find out the information requested and my daughter is on a Uni course in London.
We have not yet had the original ticket returned. After finding this forum we realised that the ticket was not going to be returned quickly so my daughter paid for a replacement.
She kept receipts of just under £200 pounds for her travel from the time the ticket was retained until a replacement ticket was obtained.
I have emails from the rail company advising her to keep receipts but the language is ambiguous "If" entitled rather than "are" entitled to refund.
We have nothing in writing when the ticket would be returned or how quickly. I have asked the train company to review the many recorded phone calls where both my daughter and I asked about refunds and were told she was eligible. The lady who took the ticket denies saying the ticket would be returned within 7 working days or that costs occurred would be refunded.

My argument is that the rail company refused to tell us where the ticket had gone or how long the process would take when we phoned after the 7 working days. Indeed, until I found the forum I did not know. If we had known (if only I had found this forum sooner!) we would have got a replacement ticket straight away and waited for the 'fine'

My son in law is a solicitor so we shall certainly approach him. I understand I maybe banging my head against a wall.
Thank you again for your information and advice.