TOC Branding

[Jayden99]

Spending some time out in South London today had me thinking about TOC brands.

A franchise/concession like Merseyrail absolutely does not let you forget that you're travelling with them, station signage, furniture, trains and literature are all in really consistent branding at the customer facing level, with nothing being anything but yellow and grey.

Southeastern on the other hand are quite happy to be a nothing brand, they don't have a consistent livery and there are still trains in Connex yellow something like 15 years after the end of that franchise, and it isn't uncommon to see yellow or even NSE red station furniture and BR signage.

Even Southern still have some things that are un-begreened after all these years.

Are there other TOCs that are as militant or as lax, and what's the reason for the difference in approach?

 

[Peter C]

Are there other TOCs that are as militant or as lax, and what's the reason for the difference in approach?

There's still quite a bit of First Great Western signage at stations on the Cotswold Line, and that name hasn't been around for five years at this point IIRC. I always assumed that GWR had never got round/needed to replace those signs (the ones I'm thinking of at Kingham are signs next to bike storage spaces and a few small ones dotted around which don't need replacing right now).

-Peter

 

[swt_passenger]

The budget for neat and consistent station signage, white lettering on a navy blue background, must have been accidentally given to, and spent by SWT.

 

[StephenHunter]

Greater Anglia aren't massively consistent either.

 

[iphone76]

Greater Anglia aren't massively consistent either.

They have so many 321 liveries at the moment. I thought that the other day as I was driving up and down the other day. Now have the Northern blue ones added to mix.

 

[StephenHunter]

The 321s are going soon, mind.

Also, BR was never exactly consistent. There were pre-1965 signs around into the 1970s on the GEML.

 

[Donny_m]

I imagine it’s just such a vast undertaking and some of these franchises may not be turning decent profits for a few years after taking over and then some of them are gone before you know it.

Usually signs just get a new sticker but benches are a bigger undertaking. It’s baffling when it’s decades like EWS locos.

 

[387star]

The most striking is Romsey. Years of neglect under various companies the moment SWR gets it boom new signs

 

[Wapps]

Why not just have one brand - British Rail - and then have the trains labelled with “operated by First Trentalia” etc? This is what London does with its buses (all red, all have TfL bus logo and then just the “operated by” strapline stuck on somewhere). At the end of the day, I doubt there is much value in the brands. And then the politicians can say they “brought back BR” without actually nationalising. Oh, and also lots of money saved on not making constant pointless changes to liveries, signage, uniforms...

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

There's still quite a bit of First Great Western signage at stations on the Cotswold Line, and that name hasn't been around for five years at this point IIRC. I always assumed that GWR had never got round/needed to replace those signs (the ones I'm thinking of at Kingham are signs next to bike storage spaces and a few small ones dotted around which don't need replacing right now).

-Peter

There's also the many Turbos which are in the GWR green livery, yet retain the old First interiors.

 

[HarryL]

We've already mostly reached the point where it's cheap and easy to rebrand a train when franchises change to be fair, an all white train with the important bits stickered on in vinyl is a whole lot cheaper and easier to rebrand than having to do a paint job. Interiors are still a problem as they tend to be branded but with how slow TOCs are to replace those (looking at the Nothern trains which received exterior repaints but interior wasnt touched, GWR and others too) it doesn't seem too high up on the importance list.

 

[Taunton]

As there are still stations on the District Line towards Upminster which have LT&S scroll ironwork (merged into the Midland Railway in 1912), with London Transport having long been regarded as the pinnacle of branding, some other places have a prior claim on coming up to date.

But is it really necessary to be like the Ancient Pharaohs of Egypt, who went round chiselling the names of predecessors off monuments? I know the marketing lot will tell you everything must be a consistent style - THEIR style, of course, for which they receive royalties as long as it is in use ...

 

[ScottGallagher]

Ever since privatisation there's rarely been a TOC that hasn't done a half arsed job with branding stations and trains (in and out) simultaneously for a consistent look.
I quite like the LNWR and West Midlands style signage where there is room for the operator name and easily changed.

 

[Envoy]

Also note that some TOC’s no longer have the name of the company that actually run it. For example, it is not obvious to Joe Public that First still run Great Western Railway. Arriva got an awful name running trains in Wales - partly because the Welsh Government had given them a no growth contract. However, is it now obvious to the general public that Keolis are now running Transport for Wales as it is now called? Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing where the name of the real operator is not visible.

Mention has been made of having cheap vinyl covering the trains thus presumably making livery changes quicker and easier? I think that the vinyl covered GWR IET’s look as dull as an army tank. At least those with real paint have a sheen to them.

 

[387star]

Another weird one is VT virgin trains stop car markers and an XC marker at Romsey meaning Crosscountry??

 

[JaJaWa]

If you’ve been following Peter Hendy’s Twitter closely you’ll know that station signs will be standardised with black text on a white background in the new Network Rail font based on Rail Alphabet...

 

[Fincra5]

If you’ve been following Peter Hendy’s Twitter closely you’ll know that station signs will be standardised with black text on a white background in the new Network Rail font based on Rail Alphabet...

All Station and not just NR managed ones?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Also note that some TOC’s no longer have the name of the company that actually run it. For example, it is not obvious to Joe Public that First still run Great Western Railway. Arriva got an awful name running trains in Wales - partly because the Welsh Government had given them a no growth contract.

The zero-growth contract was the UK Government, not the Welsh Assembly, IIRC.

 

[lancededcena]

Great Northern (ex Thameslink) and c2c 387 interiors both use Southern TOC branding from the 377 for some reason which I found strange.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Geoff Marshall recently found Network NW branding (dating from the brief "shadow franchise" era before privatisation) at Pleasington at about 6:18

 

[Fincra5]

Great Northern (ex Thameslink) and c2c 387 interiors both use Southern TOC branding from the 377 for some reason which I found strange.

Ordered under Southern to be leased out. Hence the colours. Same as 377/5s. They were delivered Purple outside but SN Green inside.

 

[crablab]

If you’ve been following Peter Hendy’s Twitter closely you’ll know that station signs will be standardised with black text on a white background in the new Network Rail font based on Rail Alphabet...

Could you provide links please?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Also note that some TOC’s no longer have the name of the company that actually run it. For example, it is not obvious to Joe Public that First still run Great Western Railway. Arriva got an awful name running trains in Wales - partly because the Welsh Government had given them a no growth contract.

Nope. The Arriva franchise was awarded by the UK Governement, not the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government were bitterly opposed to the 'no growth' element and actually spent their own money trying to ameliorate it.

 

[Envoy]

Nope. The Arriva franchise was awarded by the UK Governement, not the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government were bitterly opposed to the 'no growth' element and actually spent their own money trying to ameliorate it.

Many thanks for the correction.

 

[GarethC]

Geoff Marshall recently found Network NW branding (dating from the brief "shadow franchise" era before privatisation)...

Wasn't "Network North West" a sectorisation idea prior to shadow franchising?

 

[prod_pep]

Wasn't "Network North West" a sectorisation idea prior to shadow franchising?

Network NorthWest definitely pre-dates shadow franchising. It was introduced in 1989.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Network NorthWest definitely pre-dates shadow franchising. It was introduced in 1989.

Indeed. NorthWest[1] Regional Railways and Regional Railways North East were the shadow franchises.

[1] Yes, one word, not a typo.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Well, maybe...

NORTH WESTERN TRAINS COMPANY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

NORTH WESTERN TRAINS COMPANY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

beta.companieshouse.gov.uk

Previous company names: "NORTH WEST REGIONAL RAILWAYS LIMITED". Wouldn't stop them using NorthWest branding, of course, though I don't remember any distinct NWRR branding coming in before NWT.

 

[Parallel]

Arriva Trains Wales basically painted everything turquoise in some areas, but some other areas retained different colour schemes.

 

[387star]

Arriva Trains Wales basically painted everything turquoise in some areas, but some other areas retained different colour schemes.

Why does Patchway have a turquoise bench on the down ? Always baffled me