TOC claims ticket is tampered with

Mathieu

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In January I used a Spirit of Scotland and had some delays, ScotRail claim that my ticket has been tampered with and won’t pay out. All the dates entered on the ticket were done by guards. The 30 does look like a 31 but I don’t see how that would be an issue as I used it the next day anyway. Have disputed it several times with the TOC but they won’t change their mind. What should I do next?
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ForTheLoveOf

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In January I used a Spirit of Scotland and had some delays, ScotRail claim that my ticket has been tampered with and won’t pay out. All the dates entered on the ticket were done by guards. The 30 does look like a 31 but I don’t see how that would be an issue as I used it the next day anyway. Have disputed it several times with the TOC but they won’t change their mind. What should I do next?
View attachment 81222
The same as any other contractually due debt, send them a Letter Before Action and if they don't pay up within the given time, take it to Court. Slight complication could be the fact that they're based in Scotland and presumably you're not, but that doesn't in any way stop you from pursuing it.
 

Mathieu

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The same as any other contractually due debt, send them a Letter Before Action and if they don't pay up within the given time, take it to Court. Slight complication could be the fact that they're based in Scotland and presumably you're not, but that doesn't in any way stop you from pursuing it.
No I live in Oban, I’m going to give the Railombudsman a call soon
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Out of interest, you say this was all done by Train Guards, but it is not the responsibility of the passenger to date the box BEFORE boarding any train? Surely, a literal approach would mean the guard could have rejected the ticket completely and sold a new one? Although I'm not sure how or if that affects delay compensation.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Out of interest, you say this was all done by Train Guards, but it is not the responsibility of the passenger to date the box BEFORE boarding any train? Surely, a literal approach would mean the guard could have rejected the ticket completely and sold a new one? Although I'm not sure how or if that affects delay compensation.
It's possible the OP boarded at stations without ticketing facilities, in which case they were entitled to buy a ticket (or date their existing one) onboard. Or that they asked the guard to date the ticket as they boarded the first train of the day. There's all sorts of possible explanations, and none of it changes OP's entitlement to delay compensation.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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No I live in Oban, I’m going to give the Railombudsman a call soon
The Rail Ombudsman is an option but I wouldn't get your hopes up with them. Being in Scotland makes it somewhat easier as you haven't got to do cross-border litigation.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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It's possible the OP boarded at stations without ticketing facilities, in which case they were entitled to buy a ticket (or date their existing one) onboard. Or that they asked the guard to date the ticket as they boarded the first train of the day. There's all sorts of possible explanations, and none of it changes OP's entitlement to delay compensation.
They clearly already had the ticket. I severely doubt the lack of ticket facilities at a station means you can't date your ticket before boarding! I think with a carnet ticket in London, you'd be in court for this!
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I'd also say that Box 1 has DEFINITELY been tampered with and overwritten. Whether to correct a mistake or deliberately, that's not for me to say.
It's been overwritten - you can see that the 'month' box originally had 29 in it, only to be overwritten with 01. Probably just a mistake in terms of which box was used for the day. Not much scope for tampering or fraud there, as last time I checked there were only 12 months in a year.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Yes but any overwriting or altering of a ticket surely invalidates it.
No it doesn't, and it doesn't change the entitlement to delay compensation. Unless you're suggesting staff members can arbitrarily make your ticket invalid by writing in the date on the wrong box?
 

Tazi Hupefi

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No it doesn't, and it doesn't change the entitlement to delay compensation. Unless you're suggesting staff members can arbitrarily make your ticket invalid by writing in the date on the wrong box?
That's exactly what I am suggesting. If a member of staff makes a mistake, (and we take that at face value, that it was staff) - then there is presumably a procedure to either annotate the ticket or provide a replacement.

At the very least it is highly suspicious and would warrant further investigation and explanation.
 

Darandio

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It's possible the OP boarded at stations without ticketing facilities, in which case they were entitled to buy a ticket (or date their existing one) onboard. Or that they asked the guard to date the ticket as they boarded the first train of the day. There's all sorts of possible explanations, and none of it changes OP's entitlement to delay compensation.
I really don't understand this. The requirement for one of these tickets is to write the date of travel in the boxes before travel on each of the days. What station facilities are you talking about? Pens?
 

Tazi Hupefi

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The other thing which makes me suspicious (although I'm not accusing the OP obviously) - is that in Box 1, the pen underneath seems to be different from the pen being used with the alteration/overwriting.

Is the OP claiming that the conductor on the train first entered the date in the wrong place with one pen, and then corrected it using a totally different pen, whilst making it look fraudulent, only for on the second day, by sheer bad luck, a 30 happened to have ended up looking like a 31?

Is it theoretically possible that a fraud COULD be committed by dating Box 2 with the 30th, and travelling on the 30th, and then the OP adjusts this himself to the 31st, tries to travel on the 31st and offers an excuse of it being a "mistake", only for a conductor to not accept that, and insist that he dates another box, correctly?

Not saying that is what happened, but the entire thing seems odd.
 

Starmill

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Is the claim being made that the customer filled the box in themselves, and that the guard subsequently filled it in by 'over-writing' the date?

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand here.
 

221129

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Indeed but that doesn't seem to make much sense. I thought that was the whole point of these tickets?
That is, however in my experience people who don't date their tickets before travel tend to be trying to get extra days out of the tickets. (I must stress I am not saying that is the case here however.)
 

WesternLancer

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That is, however in my experience people who don't date their tickets before travel tend to be trying to get extra days out of the tickets. (I must stress I am not saying that is the case here however.)
I know what you mean - but I can recall an occasion when I had a rover and was not sure of the correct date, so I waited for the gaurd asked him then filled it in in his prescence. Obv would have been better to have gone and found him as soon as I boarded but...
These things happen and most staff are very fair (although no doubt they get fed up with people who do try it on).
 

Thomas31

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The other thing which makes me suspicious (although I'm not accusing the OP obviously) - is that in Box 1, the pen underneath seems to be different from the pen being used with the alteration/overwriting.

Is the OP claiming that the conductor on the train first entered the date in the wrong place with one pen, and then corrected it using a totally different pen, whilst making it look fraudulent, only for on the second day, by sheer bad luck, a 30 happened to have ended up looking like a 31?

Is it theoretically possible that a fraud COULD be committed by dating Box 2 with the 30th, and travelling on the 30th, and then the OP adjusts this himself to the 31st, tries to travel on the 31st and offers an excuse of it being a "mistake", only for a conductor to not accept that, and insist that he dates another box, correctly?

Not saying that is what happened, but the entire thing seems odd.
That is, however in my experience people who don't date their tickets before travel tend to be trying to get extra days out of the tickets. (I must stress I am not saying that is the case here however.)
You two obviously are accusing the OP of deliberately tampering with their ticket, why be mealy-mouthed about it?
 

LowLevel

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Why didn't you date the ticket yourself before starting your journey on any of the dates? Once seems a reasonable omission and I usually pass that away with an explanation and the box being dated in front of me. 4 times seems very odd.
 

CW2

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"In January I used a Spirit of Scotland and had some delays, ScotRail claim that my ticket has been tampered with and won’t pay out."
So you made full use of the ticket, but suffered some late running, and are seeking compensation for that.
Cursory examination of your ticket reveals why the TOC are refusing to pay, as it appears to be "well dodgy".

"All the dates entered on the ticket were done by guards."
Why? You are supposed to write in the date before you board the first train each day. Failure to do this (day after day) opens you up to the suspicion that you were trying to get extra days travel without paying for them. You might be quite innocent of this, but that is the appearance you have (unintentionally) created.

"The 30 does look like a 31 but I don’t see how that would be an issue as I used it the next day anyway. Have disputed it several times with the TOC but they won’t change their mind. What should I do next?"
Let it lie. You can't win this one. Write it off to experience.
Next time invest in a good pen, and remember to date your ticket clearly and correctly before boarding.
 

philthetube

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There is only the ops word that the second date was written in before travel was made and not after revenue got involved, regardless of guilt or innocence it is time to give up on this one and feel happy that it is not being considered for prosecution.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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There is only the ops word that the second date was written in before travel was made and not after revenue got involved, regardless of guilt or innocence it is time to give up on this one and feel happy that it is not being considered for prosecution.
Right, so we should second guess everything that an OP tells us, because they're probably lying, and tell them to be happy that they're not at the mercy of the Lord Advocate giving permission for ScotRail to bring a prosecution?
 

Tetchytyke

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There is only the ops word that the second date was written in before travel was made and not after revenue got involved
And that is all that is required. The OP posts something and we give advice in good faith based on that. If the OP is not telling the truth then that's on them.

FWIW both 30/1 and 31/1 are listed on the ticket, so quite what scam is taking place is beyond me.

Cursory examination of your ticket reveals why the TOC are refusing to pay, as it appears to be "well dodgy".
I don't agree, both days were clearly marked on the ticket? If Scotrail don't think the OP travelled on 30/1, and wrote 31/1, why write 31/1 in the next box? Doesn't make sense. The only reason you'd omit the date is to try and use the ticket on more than four days, and if that was the aim you'd be arguing to revenue it said 31/1 and not putting the date in again!
 
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njr001

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Could I suggest that the OP removes his personal details from the ticket. The tickets are shown as being issued 28th January and then used the following four consecutive days which would seem to confirm his story.
 

SteveM70

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FWIW both 30/1 and 31/1 are listed on the ticket, so quite what scam is taking place is beyond me.
Absolutely NOT saying this is what the OP has done, but it’s perfectly plausible that a dishonest customer could write 31/01 in the second box on the 30th, and hope with cursory inspection that it wouldn’t be spotted and that he could then use it again the following day. But an eagle eyed RPI might spot the error on the 30th and correct it, forcing the customer to put the 31st in the third box.
 

MikeWh

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It's possible the OP boarded at stations without ticketing facilities, in which case they were entitled to buy a ticket (or date their existing one) onboard.
Can you explain your thinking: Why does a lack of ticketing facilities prevent you from personally dating a ticket you already have?
 

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