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TOC claims ticket is tampered with

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causton

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Are we all overthinking this?

The ticket was issued on 28th. The OP used it on the following four consecutive days, viz 29th, 30th, 31st and 1st.

I can fully understand the first error, as the "day" boxes already have a number in them.

Hopefully, the OP will clarify further.....

I think some people are thinking that the OP could have tried to only enter three of those four dates, then travel on a fifth (e.g. if they didn't fill in 31st on day 3, they could fill in the 1st as the fourth day of validity, then the 2nd as a fifth day)

Personally, I don't think that's happened, but on the other hand I think anyone who thinks the ticket doesn't look at least slightly suspicious have a very blinkered view of the railway (maybe they think everything from the TOCs side is very anti-customer, and the customers never do anything wrong!)

I am definitely in the "let it lie" camp as the ticket has undoubtedly been altered. No matter why, by who, when, or what effect that has on the ticket, I think the OP was lucky to use it on four days bearing in mind the first mistake could have taken out both day 1 and day 2 of validity!

Unfortunately I don't know what else could have been done on the OPs part to prevent that mistake in the first place, I recently used an Interrail ticket and almost entered the date wrong despite checking a good few times to make sure I was doing it right. (Maybe the ticket office staff could have helped, or the OP could have dated it in front of them, therefore a non-issue and re-issue could have been undertaken straight away - but then what if the first day is used, etc? It's not easy...)
 
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Fokx

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It's a 4 in 8 ticket yes but the ticket has been dated for the 4 consecutive days beginning with the purchase day so there is zero benefit to the customer here. If a day were missed out (eg. 28/01, 29/01, 31/01, 01/02) then I'd get your point but even if it looks messy then there's no fraud here because it couldn't possibly have been used in an invalid way.

For clarity I am no means saying the OP did this:

However a person reasonably could travel on the 29/01 then 30/01, alter the 30/01 to 31/01 and then get another days travel for free.

Another ‘questionable’ thing I’ve spotted is that for the actual 31/01 the number ‘3’ is much larger so an attempt could have been made to do exactly what I’ve said and then the person has wrote in the ‘3’ of the ‘31/01’ at a later time. It would then be consistent with the incorrect ‘1/02’ box both in size and pen

So a person may travel on the 29/01, 30/01 change this to 31/01 the next box 1/02 and then there’s a spare box.
 

WesternLancer

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Actually - going back to start of this it's a delay repay claim - and I guess the TOC are saying 'we are not paying D-R because we think this ticket has been abused and was not valid' (I guess there is an exemption to D-R if you do not have a valid ticket) - but that sounds to me like they are making an excuse not to pay D-R.

If they think the ticket has been invalidated they should pass it on to their prosecution team and seek to prove it shouldn't they?

What they are actually saying is 'we'll let you off this time but we're not going to give you any refunds because we think this ticket is fraudulent but we can't proove it' - is that a reasonable stance to take? Maybe it is.
 

Western Sunset

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Playing devil's advocate for a moment.

Does any accompanying literature state that the user has to fill in the date before travel?

The actual boxes on Coupon 2 are a tad confusing. The columns are headed "Date" and "Month" - shouldn't that be "Day" and "Month"? Also having a pre-printed number in the date box might suggest that one doesn't put anything in that box.
 

bunnahabhain

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Surely, a literal approach would mean the guard could have rejected the ticket completely and sold a new one? Although I'm not sure how or if that affects delay compensation.
The textbook approach is that if the passenger has not filled in the date, you should cross out an unusued box, and fill in the next available box yourself. If you cross out the last unused box then the passenger is treated as if they boarded without a valid ticket because they can't date a box for that day (they now have none left). I've never enforced this rule but know many who have.

Good luck finding a guard willing to do that...
*Puts hand up* Authorised to do it, and happy to do it, I have authorised tickets for validity beyond what they are valid for, for a variety of reasons and have done it on many occasions.
 

SWTCommuter

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Playing devil's advocate for a moment.

Does any accompanying literature state that the user has to fill in the date before travel?

The actual boxes on Coupon 2 are a tad confusing. The columns are headed "Date" and "Month" - shouldn't that be "Day" and "Month"? Also having a pre-printed number in the date box might suggest that one doesn't put anything in that box.

This note appears in the Validity section of the National Rail website page for the Spirit of Scotland ticket:
National Rail website said:
Passenger note
When a passenger needs to self validate a Rover ticket, the date of travel should be completed in black ink using numerical values only for 'Day' and 'Month' eg 07 09 for travel on 7th September.
The Rover will need to be validated before the first journey on that day commences.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/prf90d13c35ce741008d5f4736d0e192.aspx
 
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Darandio

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Thanks.
Interesting it states "Day" and "Month" when the coupon has "Date" and "Month" on it. Just being pedantic.....

Probably.

The fact that millions of rover tickets have been sold over the years and the vast majority used without any problem suggests that isn't a particular issue.
 

David Goddard

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Assuming this had been seen as OK by ScotRail, how much could the OP have received? The ticket cost him less than £25 per day to start with- is delay repay calculated proportionately on rovers and rangers, and what are these?
Sounds like a lot of effort to recover what could be as little as £10
 

[.n]

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Probably to discourage people from writing something like 'Mon' in the 'Day' column.

Its not that uncommon a thing to do, I've had 3 in 7 rovers before and written in stuff like Mon 4 May before, I find it reduces confusion.

Though to my mind the easiest thing thing would be for a list of valid dates to be printed, and then for the date to be selected (ticked)

With regard to the OP's problem, I assume that they are legitimately claiming Delay Repay, and would challenge it, otherwise if the TOC is claiming fraud, then they should prosecute, as thats what they are accusing the OP of having done by refusing DR
 

MotCO

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With regard to the OP's problem, I assume that they are legitimately claiming Delay Repay, and would challenge it, otherwise if the TOC is claiming fraud, then they should prosecute, as thats what they are accusing the OP of having done by refusing DR

You could take this one step further and argue if the OP does not challenge it, then the TOC could assume that the OP implictly agrees that he has defaced it / committed a fraud and the TOC could [1] use this as evidence to prosecute for fraud.

[1] I say could, but assume it woud be unlikely.
 

323235

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You could take this one step further and argue if the OP does not challenge it, then the TOC could assume that the OP implictly agrees that he has defaced it / committed a fraud and the TOC could [1] use this as evidence to prosecute for fraud.

[1] I say could, but assume it woud be unlikely.

Yes they could keep it on record for "fraud prevention monitoring" to make false accusations in the future, and note that no response was received to challenge the decision not to pay out due to accusation of fraud.

I'd say if the OP is 100% confident they did not do anything (I don't include having the boxes dated for them as anything) other than make a simple mistake (note I am not using the word "honest mistake" as that implies that an offence WAS committed) of putting the 29 in the month box and then there was an issue with dodgy pen for the next day then persue it.

I also note the comment about why it is a problem if there is no ticketing facilities in dating / getting a ticket dated onboard - I've done this many times if I haven't got a pen (I don't carry pens around as a routine, as I've had them ruin my bags too often in my younger days when i did write things down or carry one / rarely need one) - normal routine if the guard isn't around the saloon is to bang on the cab door to borrow a pen off them and attempt to write on the ticket on the train wall (with varying degrees of success / depending on the qaulity of the pen / quality of my hand writing.

RPIs shouldn't in my view if they are operating within rail company rules be correcting wrong dates if they think the passenger is committing fraud, they should cross out the box and put it in the next one or withdraw the ticket and issue a TI, if they are correcting it then they are officially accepting the passenger has given a reasonable explanation for either in their view what looks like a poorly dated box or a simple human error - case closed.

This whole stupid situation with dating carnets and rovers and accusing innocent people needs to be put to bed by investing in digital technology because it is just plain rediculous, it seems like the train company do it to purposely entrap people or use it as an excuse not to pay out delay repay.
 

CW2

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<snip>
This whole stupid situation with dating carnets and rovers and accusing innocent people needs to be put to bed by investing in digital technology because it is just plain rediculous, it seems like the train company do it to purposely entrap people or use it as an excuse not to pay out delay repay.
Your final paragraph seems to be a particularly perverse reading of the situation.
If you buy a rover ticket that requires validation by writing the date on it, it seems reasonable to expect that you know how to use a pen, and can bring one with you. After all, it is your responsibility as part of the ticket conditions to date the ticket before use.
To accuse the TOCs of deliberate entrapment is exceptionally perverse. We should be glad that they continue to offer reduced rate rover / ranger tickets at all.
 

323235

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So if everyone can use a pen to the same exact flawless standard and legability and write things 100% perfect all of the time, why do we have computers to do most of the work nowadays?
I think it is equally perverse to expect humans not to make simple mistakes and then jump on them with accusations of fraud to get out of paying for delays.
I also don't see why I or anyone else should have to bring a pen just to dance to the railways tune because their ticketing requires validation (in this case with a pens) and they don't provide the facilities to do so (If they did they would most likely provide pens that aren't fit for purpose and can then be used to accuse wrongdoing). I have never in recent years brought a pen for validating a ticket and don't intend to start now. We are in the year 2020 and are still using ticketing from the dark ages and the railways are increasingly using said archaeic ticketing as a reason to penalise passengers, as they look for more opportunities to obtain extra/retain money for simple mistakes (again I avoid the use of "honest mistakes" because that implies wrong doing in railway terminology).
 

furlong

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The elephant in the room is that the most common writing implements people use often don't work on the surface of the supplied tickets, which is designed for a thermal printing process. Add to that the confusion of 'Date' and the unexplained numbers already printed in some of the boxes (are you meant to write over them or not?) and the whole thing is barely fit-for-purpose: On any reading it seems far more likely in cases like these that there's a misunderstanding about how the thing was supposed to be filled in or a struggle to obtain a release of ink from the pen onto the surface in the shape intended, than any 'fraud'. If you don't believe me, take a selection of ballpoint pens and a selection of old tickets and try writing small characters accurately on them. Sometimes the pen moves in a direction of its own and certain parts of the surface refuse to absorb any ink. An attempt to write a zero really can come out like a 1 on some parts of the surface of some tickets if you just write normally and haven't learned how to deal with the special surface (and in particular how to choose your pen carefully and how to recognise when to stop immediately if the pen starts to swerve).
 

Fokx

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I also don't see why I or anyone else should have to bring a pen just to dance to the railways tune because their ticketing requires validation (in this case with a pens) and they don't provide the facilities to do so (If they did they would most likely provide pens that aren't fit for purpose and can then be used to accuse wrongdoing). I have never in recent years brought a pen for validating a ticket and don't intend to start now.

It’s a condition of the ticket, if you fail to do so you may be liable for a penalty fare as you will be travelling without a valid ticket (but more often than not the person ticket checking will likely loan you there pen).

The railway staff will always be willing to provide you pen to use if you go to a staffed booking office, meaning you do not need to carry one yourself. I totally agree with you saying that some pens don’t fully work on the ticket, however ticket inspectors write on X amount of tickets daily and rarely have problems, including dating open returns.

If you feel so strongly about the issue, remember that these types of tickets are optional and you’re more than welcome to purchase (at greater cost) single/return tickets for every leg of your journey that you won’t need a pen for.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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It’s a condition of the ticket, if you fail to do so you may be liable for a penalty fare as you will be travelling without a valid ticket (but more often than not the person ticket checking will likely loan you there pen).

The railway staff will always be willing to provide you pen to use if you go to a staffed booking office, meaning you do not need to carry one yourself. I totally agree with you saying that some pens don’t fully work on the ticket, however ticket inspectors write on X amount of tickets daily and rarely have problems, including dating open returns.

If you feel so strongly about the issue, remember that these types of tickets are optional and you’re more than welcome to purchase (at greater cost) single/return tickets for every leg of your journey that you won’t need a pen for.
It's one thing to "stamp" a ticket by writing on it. Any old squiggle will do for that. To write a date accurately and clearly in the really rather small boxes given on such tickets is definitely easier said than done.

Pens are so dirt cheap that quite frankly, I think a standard issue pen that works well on tickets should be provided with any ticket that requires dating. If you then fail to use that pen that's up to you. I (and I'm sure most other passengers) would be happy to pay 5p more on any such ticket to cover the cost of the pen.
 

WesternLancer

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It’s a condition of the ticket, if you fail to do so you may be liable for a penalty fare as you will be travelling without a valid ticket (but more often than not the person ticket checking will likely loan you there pen).

The railway staff will always be willing to provide you pen to use if you go to a staffed booking office, meaning you do not need to carry one yourself. I totally agree with you saying that some pens don’t fully work on the ticket, however ticket inspectors write on X amount of tickets daily and rarely have problems, including dating open returns.

If you feel so strongly about the issue, remember that these types of tickets are optional and you’re more than welcome to purchase (at greater cost) single/return tickets for every leg of your journey that you won’t need a pen for.
In post #1 the OP states " All the dates entered on the ticket were done by guards. "

Indicating that all the errors written were staff errors. We have to take that at face value.
 

Mag_seven

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To write a date accurately and clearly in the really rather small boxes given on such tickets is definitely easier said than done.

There is also the issue that hardy anybody writes anything down these days - it is tapped into an smart phone or computer. I wouldn't go as far to say that writing things down manually is a lost skill but it seems to be heading that way.
 

CW2

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In post #1 the OP states " All the dates entered on the ticket were done by guards. "

Indicating that all the errors written were staff errors. We have to take that at face value.
Also indicating that the OP was failing to adhere with the tickets Conditions of Sale from the outset.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Also indicating that the OP was failing to adhere with the tickets Conditions of Sale from the outset.
That relies on an assumption that the dating wasn't done before it needed to be done. For instance, the OP may have asked the guard to date the ticket before the train started from its origin.
 

WesternLancer

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Also indicating that the OP was failing to adhere with the tickets Conditions of Sale from the outset.
Yes, but also showing that staff prepared to take a helpful stance on the matter in the interests of customer service (as opposed to implementing the rule / guidance quoted above that states the guard could / should rule out an unfilled in day and date the next box).

Personally I'm skeptical that staff would make so many date errors given that knowing the date must be a key part of ticket inspection duties on any particular day, but could easily have been a newish member of staff who was not familiar with seeing Rover type tickets fr example, and we must assume the OP is accurate when states all the entries were made by staff.

Of note is that the OP has not rtd to this thread (despite starting another one on a different topic)
 

1955LR

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According to the OP the guard did the overwrite, and I would expect that he/she should had initialled the change ,to confirm it, much as you do with a cheque if you make an error. There would be then no issue as to the intent. Its probably something that is not in the public conscience now that paper records are diminishing.
 

robbeech

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The suggestion that OP should be grateful they weren't TIRed demonstrates, yet again, just how much is wrong with the attitude to customer service the rail industry has.
I hardly think it’s such a poor attitude to expect the passenger to follow the rules which has quite clearly not been done (perhaps with justifiable reason, perhaps without).
The textbook approach is that if the passenger has not filled in the date, you should cross out an unusued box, and fill in the next available box yourself. If you cross out the last unused box then the passenger is treated as if they boarded without a valid ticket because they can't date a box for that day (they now have none left). I've never enforced this rule but know many who have.
so the textbook penalty for not dating a box before you start your journey is to lose a day on your rover. Is that just your operator or is this a general rule?
personally I consider this fair if the passenger has no reasonable excuse for not doing so, so as always discretion appears to be key here
So if everyone can use a pen to the same exact flawless standard and legability and write things 100% perfect all of the time, why do we have computers to do most of the work nowadays?
I think it is equally perverse to expect humans not to make simple mistakes and then jump on them with accusations of fraud to get out of paying for delays.
I also don't see why I or anyone else should have to bring a pen just to dance to the railways tune because their ticketing requires validation (in this case with a pens) and they don't provide the facilities to do so (If they did they would most likely provide pens that aren't fit for purpose and can then be used to accuse wrongdoing). I have never in recent years brought a pen for validating a ticket and don't intend to start now.
I don’t think it is worth trying to answer why we have computers, i’ll use the excuse that it would be too far off topic. We have rules that we are expected to follow, some of them are outdated, as are the principals, concepts and scenarios they relate to, but that doesn’t change them. I think if people don’t want to carry a pen with them that’s fine, but this doesn’t change the rules. People who are happy to break them don’t really concern me, but they shouldn’t expect to receive sympathy if they are penalised for not following the rules. Part of the issue tends to be the attitude test. To politely ask a guard, or someone in a ticket office, a shop, or just a person on the street or platform (appreciate things are different currently) to borrow a pen is perfectly acceptable (and not everyone is confident in asking a random person for this, so they may want to limit this for the guard or other staff member, or consider carrying a pen). But to categorically say you’re not going to fill in date boxes because you won’t carry a pen is likely to end up in a thread on here which I would not like to see. Back on topic (sorry), the key that has been touched on here is the OP who does contribute to other topics hasn’t returned as yet, but also, they chose not to explain any of the things that should seem obvious in the initial posts. It’s clear that 29 1 was written in the month of part 1 and the day of part 2, as a genuine error either by a guard or by them. They’re not prepared to explain further and again, it seems strange and suspicious despite there being no indication whatsoever of any genuine attempt at fraud. I don’t think we can get any further unless the op explains more.
 

ainsworth74

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Assuming this had been seen as OK by ScotRail, how much could the OP have received? The ticket cost him less than £25 per day to start with- is delay repay calculated proportionately on rovers and rangers, and what are these?
Sounds like a lot of effort to recover what could be as little as £10

Varies by TOC (and probably by person where they're still used rather than computer). Some will work out a daily rate and then pay out the appropriate proportion based on that. Some will pay out on the basis of the value of the whole rover. Still others have, occasionally, been reported as using the value of whatever the equivalent walk-up ticket for the delayed journey was and payout on that basis. So how long is your piece of string really!
 

[.n]

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We still teach handwriting in the primary school I work at.......

That's nice :)

Now please write out the numerals from 0 to 9 in the only official standard that exists in the whole wide world please. (If case you don't get this, I for example often use what I believe is a continental format and put a cross through 7, sometimes through 0, etc.)
 
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