TOC claims ticket is tampered with

[[.n]]

The textbook approach is that if the passenger has not filled in the date, you should cross out an unusued box, and fill in the next available box yourself. If you cross out the last unused box then the passenger is treated as if they boarded without a valid ticket because they can't date a box for that day (they now have none left). I've never enforced this rule but know many who have.

*Puts hand up* Authorised to do it, and happy to do it, I have authorised tickets for validity beyond what they are valid for, for a variety of reasons and have done it on many occasions.

So its day 1 of my 4 in 8 rover, for whatever reason I haven't filled in a date (whether is valid or or not, but lets assume its at least reasonable), then an authorised person could mark already used day -1 even though that's not possible!

 

[CW2]

So its day 1 of my 4 in 8 rover, for whatever reason I haven't filled in a date (whether is valid or or not, but lets assume its at least reasonable), then an authorised person could mark already used day -1 even though that's not possible!

No, they put a big cross through the box you should have marked (day 1) and write today's date in box 2, so you lose an entire day's validity.

 

[MotCO]

That's nice

Now please write out the numerals from 0 to 9 in the only official standard that exists in the whole wide world please. (If case you don't get this, I for example often use what I believe is a continental format and put a cross through 7, sometimes through 0, etc.)

And try practicing on a bit of slippery cardboard

 

[Bletchleyite]

The textbook approach is that if the passenger has not filled in the date, you should cross out an unusued box, and fill in the next available box yourself. If you cross out the last unused box then the passenger is treated as if they boarded without a valid ticket because they can't date a box for that day (they now have none left). I've never enforced this rule but know many who have.

Where's that written, out of interest? It seems rather akin to a Penalty Fare, effectively "charging" two boxes for one day.

 

[[.n]]

It's one thing to "stamp" a ticket by writing on it. Any old squiggle will do for that. To write a date accurately and clearly in the really rather small boxes given on such tickets is definitely easier said than done.

Pens are so dirt cheap that quite frankly, I think a standard issue pen that works well on tickets should be provided with any ticket that requires dating. If you then fail to use that pen that's up to you. I (and I'm sure most other passengers) would be happy to pay 5p more on any such ticket to cover the cost of the pen.

One solution, though I can see the amendments for TVMS to dispense pens and tickets being interesting!

But that does highlight the point, there is no official stamp / marking method that is used by the rail industry - as noted any old random squiggle / hole etc seems to be legit if used by a guard - its meaningless, which is annoying but useful when tickets are marked in error - the next guard to inspect the ticket has no way no knowing what said random squiggle means

It could be argued, therefore any old attempt at a date by a customer is equally valid

 

[[.n]]

No, they put a big cross through the box you should have marked (day 1) and write today's date in box 2, so you lose an entire day's validity.

Which is exactly my point, they have implied you travelled before the first day of validity, which is not possible

(Bear in mind my specific example is about travelling on the first day of validity)

 

[CW2]

Which is exactly my point, they have implied you travelled before the first day of validity, which is not possible

(Bear in mind my specific example is about travelling on the first day of validity)

It doesn't matter which day it was. You might have been attempting to travel for free that day so that you could get an extra day's travel out of the ticket later in the week.
It really is VERY simple. The onus is on the purchaser of the ticket to validate that ticket by dating it, by pen, with leading zeroes on the dates, before attempting to travel. Any travel undertaken without following the rules is potentially fraudulent - and may be viewed as such by revenue staff.

This isn't a uniquely British rule, the same applies to all manner of rover tickets throughout Europe and elsewhere.

Incidentally the same rule applies to rail staff whose free travel boxes have to be filled in in exactly the same manner. In this case, the used passes used to be handed in at the end of the year and any suspected dodginess would result in next year's allocation being reduced in the number of boxes available. Nowadays the annual examination of used passes no longer takes place (as far as I am aware).

 

[robbeech]

Which is exactly my point, they have implied you travelled before the first day of validity, which is not possible

(Bear in mind my specific example is about travelling on the first day of validity)

I considered it more a ‘penalty’ for not following the rules of the ticket. If you fail to provide a reasonable excuse or justification for failing to fill it in (you didn’t have a pen, it ran out, you didn’t know the date so thought you could check, you wanted to check you were filling it in correctly, you have a disability that makes it difficult or impossible to fill in the date are all reasonable excuses, ranging from perfectly acceptable to a bit cheeky but justification enough for a guard to use their discretion) then you have broken the rules, you lose validity of one day and the guard fills in the current date in the next box.
I have never seen this written anywhere, either in any public document or otherwise, so I’d question whether it is acceptable if it is not documented and described but I’m not suggesting I disagree with the idea.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As it happens, the instructions given in KnowledgeBase (which are a minimum standard, and can be superseded by Company policy) are different for Flexi-Rovers and Staff Travel Cards. For Flexi-Rovers, it states the following:

The date box has been completed on the 'Flexi Rover' before the journey has commenced. If not then use discretion. If you believe it is a genuine mistake then ask the customer to complete the date box. If you suspect fraudulent travel, then withdraw the Rover ticket. Attach the Rover ticket to a 'Report of Irregular Travelling' and issue a free excess ticket to enable the passenger to complete the journey that day.

For Staff Travel Cards, meanwhile, it states:

2. Holder is using the card for FREE travel but has not entered a date in the box:

Cancel the first or next available box with an 'X' (This procedure requires there to be at least two boxes remaining on the card). Write the correct date in the next available box.

2.1 If there is only one box remaining or if all the boxes have been used collect the Staff Travel Card.

• Do not collect the Photo Card unless you think that the person involved in the incident is not the person on the card.
• Issue a free excess for the whole journey being made (both outward and return).
• Obtain the holder's work location, grade, pay number and, if possible their current administration centre (this need not be the one that originally issued the Card).
• Submit a Report of Irregular Travelling as soon as possible.
• Tell the person's Personnel Department that they have been reported and the Travel Card has been retained.

 

[[.n]]

It really is VERY simple. The onus is on the purchaser of the ticket to validate that ticket by dating it, by pen, with leading zeroes on the dates, before attempting to travel. Any travel undertaken without following the rules is potentially fraudulent - and may be viewed as such by revenue staff.

Okay so as far as I can see there is nothing in the NRCOT that is obvious about validating tickets, but it is quite clears about tampering with tickets, which according to some staff includes any mark/fold/etc made by a customer onto a ticket!

4.7. You should not tamper with a Ticket in any way. If you do so it will not be valid for travel.

This is from a specific page on the NRE web site for FOSS3in7 - seems to cast some doubt on whether its the passenger or "railway" that needs to validate this ticket. It also doesn't specify that what order boxes should be filled in. It does specify a black pen, which is interesting seeing the random colours guards can apparently use to squiggle on tickets and for these to have some kind of "official meaning".

When a passenger needs to self validate a Rover ticket, the date of travel should be completed in black ink using numerical values only for 'Day' and 'Month' eg 07 09 for travel on 7th September.

The Rover will need to be validated before the first journey on that day commences.

If I read the text "numerical values only" without the example, then I'll be honest I would have dated the example given date given as 7/9, as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, I would have thought it was to prevent me from writing stuff like 7th Sep.

It should say like "using numerical values, with a leading zero when required (dd-mm)"

And as a final nit pick (using the ticket form the first post) the ticket didn't EXPIRE 04-FBY-20 [Ooh look a different date format!!!], its more a case of something like VALID SELECTED DATES 29-JNR-20 TO 04-FBY-20, otherwise it would be possible to argue that its valid for the dates that are written in AND 4th February


Its an age old case, again, of where some simple changes where tickets and information given on them could be so much simpler for both passengers and staff (especially given that a rover ticket leads to the production of another ticket, so space isn't an issue)

 

[greyman42]

Incidentally the same rule applies to rail staff whose free travel boxes have to be filled in in exactly the same manner. In this case, the used passes used to be handed in at the end of the year and any suspected dodginess would result in next year's allocation being reduced in the number of boxes available. Nowadays the annual examination of used passes no longer takes place (as far as I am aware).

It does not.