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TOC Management – assuming you browse this forum – this one's for you

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70014IronDuke

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Originally posted by HarleyDavidson in this thread

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129424

“That wasn't uncommon. I managed to do Waterloo - Southampton Ctl, in just about 65' with a 442 set and that was driving it like I stole it, a clear run and using every bit of route knowledge I had to the max.

Now as I've got older & wiser, I just cannot be bothered to chase time up, you don't get any extra money for it and you never get any thanks for making it back up so what's the darn point. In fact you're just as likely to make a mistake and get downloaded and done for something trivial! ”

Originally posted by dk1 in this thread

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129415&page=2

“It happened all the bloody time. Just now it becomes a national disgrace. One of the main reasons I no longer enjoy my job “

Now, I'm sure you can't please all train crew (or any other employees down the chain) all the time. I accept that.

But I do wonder, how can this be. It is 65 years (or so) after the early business schools opened up in the UK, and we even had BR management programmes at Derby, Watford and I don't know where else (Woking was one perhaps?) in the 60s and 70s to boot.

All these institutions, apart from technical skills (like accounting, or, in the case of Derby, how a diesel engine works), have been - or were - supposedly teaching the value of management encouraging a responsible work ethic among staff, and at least ensuring a word of appreciation for good work.

So how come two train crew, who, at least through their contributions to this group, come over as keen to do a good job, become so disullusioned? (And sadly, I suspect there are many more.)

Train crew (and station staff) generally took pride in regaining lost time in steam and early diesel days. Station dwell times were reduced by sharp platform work, and running times trimmed by determined driving and sometimes liberal interpretation of speed limits.

I have no idea if there was any official system (as opposed to chance that a manager was on the train) by which such work was acknowledged back then, yet today, when, with all the black-box thingamijigs, it would be relatively easy to see and praise cases of dedication by staff, what do we get?

From the guys responding here, it would seem that these advances, rather than a tool for encouragement, are only used to clobber staff for infringements.

Maybe this is not the case, and HarleyDavidson and dk1 are unusual.
Just seems a bit awry to me.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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...So how come two train crew, who, at least through their contributions to this group, come over as keen to do a good job, become so disullusioned? (And sadly, I suspect there are many more.)

....

Maybe this is not the case, and HarleyDavidson and dk1 are unusual.
Just seems a bit awry to me.

They are far from alone, unusual or isolated cases.
 

YoungJohnson

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There seems to be more of an increase in corporate values and business school graduates, rather than managers who have had a trade / skill / experience and gone into supervisory then management positions.

It seems in many industries that HR, PR, marketing, accountants, management consultants and random corporate types are the ones with the power calling all the shots, where as the managers who have worked their way up or are technically very adept are not the ones making the decisions.

It certainly seems the same as within politics where until very recently (until Farage, Corbyn and the like got on the scene), corporate values trumped everything else, and anyone proposing anything that was counter to what the likes of say Goldman Sachs say is correct would be pilloried as a "communist / racist / lefty / nationalist / populist / xenophobe / whatever".
 

Simon11

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So what do you suggest that TOC management do to improve the situation? With the first scenario, would you really expect a TOC to give a bonus for an employee making up time??? That would lead to short cuts being taken.

On the second story, we have graduate schemes and Apprenticeship schemes. Are they not as good as these BR schemes?

Its always easy to look at the past with a clear lovely view, but I'm sure even during that periods, there were a lot of staff who didn't feel valued in their job. It would also be worth pointing out that safety wasn't much as a concern in the old days and staff will always be against new ideas which require staff to take the longer but safer route. Finally, did BR even do staff satisfaction surveys like TOC now do to record what staff thought??
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....did BR even do staff satisfaction surveys like TOC now do to record what staff thought??

I must be working for the wrong TOC. The only survey I get is loaded in favour of the company and the shared 'results' manipulated to make the manglement look good.
 

ungreat

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They are far from alone, unusual or isolated cases.

Sadly true. Ive done nigh on 30 years as a driver and I've never known such low morale. I do whats on my diagram and nothing more. No point any more as if you do extra and drop a clanger you'll only be hauled over the coals for it. No point sticking your neck out when management are waiting in the shadows with an axe constantly
 

306024

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It isn't just staff that get disillusioned. There's a fair few managers out there looking at their pension statements more closely these days. The constant refranchising wears you down, new senior managers appear from nowhere without the experience and knowledge to command respect. Some can earn it, but others are just carried along until the next franchise, or disappear again soon after they've arrived.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Probably I should explain why I have become so disillusioned by today's railway.

When I started under BR, it was an organisation that worked and it all worked together and it was good, but the money was dire.

When I first passed out for driving my route knowledge was quite big for the SR SW Division.

I used to sign just about everything inside the M25, bar Windsor & the Fulwell - Strawberry Hill section and west of Basingstoke.

Then NSE came along as a predecessor to privatisation and the route knowledge started to contract not just incrementally, but rapidly at one stage I even lost Portsmouth route knowledge off my ticket!

So from having reasonable route knowledge and traction knowledge it went backwards and the outlook became more & more depressing, so I moved depot to get rid of the suburban rubbish and gain mainline routes instead, unfortunately for me family business intervened and I had to return to my original depot and lost nearly all of the mainline stuff that I gained.

Although I did have a set of good managers at time, who let me keep selected routes on via route refreshers. Then I had a nasty experience with my lot, which took me to some VERY DARK places in my mind, which didn't help me one jot, I eventually recovered from that, only for them to have another go.

So I decided to remove some of the more useful stuff from my route ticket such as Woking - Basingstoke - Eastleigh to both Southampton/Fareham - Portsmouth and Netley line from my route ticket in spite.

It didn't take long for it to come back and bite them hard on the backside, when the service went wrong. When previously I could have diverted with arrogant ease, it wound up with the train getting terminated. Not that they probably care.

With hindsight I wish I hadn't removed it, but I am where I am when it comes to that, they won't give me a couple of days RR to reinstate it, so when it goes wrong, tough luck. I'm stuck just like the passengers.

Do I care now? Yes/no, depends on how I feel.

So now I'm stuck in a rut, with long boring, monotonous, repetitive suburban rubbish turns, with the very occasional trip on the mainline to the coast.

It's now got to the point where after 25+ years service, I'm giving serious consideration to chucking the job in. I loath the thought of coming in and having to do suburban rubbish all day/night long or branch work.

The job has become a chore, more than what it used to be which was enjoyable when we used to have a big and varied route knowledge which meant that you could be doing Basingstoke one trip, Reading on another then back for a Cobham or fast back home.

That variation made all of the difference because it meant you had to think and keep your mind active, instead it's easy to go onto autopilot for most of the time. OK that may sound worrying, but the mind soon focuses when under restrictive aspects, in fact as soon as I leave to Surbiton now I just do 36 mph and let it run because the timetable is so ****!

If it runs late... Meh! Not my fault, that's the TPU for you.

I just come in, do what I have to do and go home and I'm quite happy to be away from the railway now on my days off. I've only got another few years to do and the way I feel at the moment, retirement with the way things are currently can't come quick enough!

If things were to change and my route/traction knowledge were to expand considerably then that may change, but TBQH there's more chance of Elvis Presley becoming the next PM than that happening!
 
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455driver

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My lot are rolling out a new uniform in a couple of weeks but we are not allowed to wear shirt and trousers with the harrington jacket but have to wear the polo shirts and combat trousers, I have worn shirt, trousers and harrington since I started driving trains nearly 9 years ago but in 2 weeks time it will be against company policy.

When I ordered my uniform we werent told about this 'policy' so I dont have any combat trousers and only one polo shirt and wasnt able to change the order because the chance to do so had passed by the time I got back from holiday.

When I asked why is it policy the answer was 'because it is' and then they spouted out the normal corporate cowmanure with all the latest buzzwords in, I just 'okay dont ask for any favours in future' and walked out.
 

GB

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So what do you suggest that TOC management do to improve the situation? With the first scenario, would you really expect a TOC to give a bonus for an employee making up time??? That would lead to short cuts being taken.

A bonus no...that is asking for trouble. But a simple phone call or email to say thank you etc etc is not that difficult and goes along way towards recognition for the employee.

Unfortunately emails and phone calls of such nature a few and far between unless its at the other end of the spectrum.
 

Marklund

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A bonus no...that is asking for trouble. But a simple phone call or email to say thank you etc etc is not that difficult and goes along way towards recognition for the employee.

Unfortunately emails and phone calls of such nature a few and far between unless its at the other end of the spectrum.

And that's not just for TOCs - it's the same on NR.
It's pointless going out your way now, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

ComUtoR

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The first time I was disillusioned it's was me. The job was hard and it was crushing my spirit. I was new and the railway was oppressing. I got over it, worked hard and I was proud of my job.

The second kind time I was disillusioned it was management. They care an uncaring bunch of £@*"'-#'s the do as your told attitudes and constant bullying can crush your spirit and make you incredibly cynical. Yep no favours from me no more. I got over it, worked hard and I was proud of my job.

I'm disillusioned once again. This time it's passengers and their ilk. Can't do anything right. We are overpaid, militant unionists who do everything to get out of work. Shut up and drive your train cause I pay your wages is a common attitude. Don't want to buy a ticket, don't want to treat the trains or the staff with any respect. I'll get over it. I work hard and I'm proud of my job.
 

LowLevel

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To be fair our lot have started to do just that. If something happens, the job goes to **** or you sort something out you quite often get a card or an email saying thanks which does a bit do promote good feeling. A manager will usually call the guard even in the case of just 'severe delay' to make sure all is well. Still in dispute over rosters and work every single time it's looked at though and pay deals aren't much different :)
 

Llanigraham

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Sadly true. Ive done nigh on 30 years as a driver and I've never known such low morale. I do whats on my diagram and nothing more. No point any more as if you do extra and drop a clanger you'll only be hauled over the coals for it. No point sticking your neck out when management are waiting in the shadows with an axe constantly

You can including the signalling staff in that, too!
 

Carlisle

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Finally, did BR even do staff satisfaction surveys like TOC now do to record what staff thought??
I remember an early 90s BR scheme called "Partnership For Progress" that gave many staff a days jolly somewhere unfortunately I didn't get to go on it,
 
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Bishopstone

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So, this stuff about graduate 'whizz kids' with little experience getting management positions and making a mess of things.

Are these people selected in preference to those seeking promotion from operational grades, who by definition have industry experience?

OR is it that, once employed as a driver on £45k per annum, the additional (or different) responsibilities of management are unattractive for little or zero salary increase, plus an expectation of unpaid overtime etc?

If internal people with the necessary skills are being routinely overlooked in favour of outsiders, then I have sympathy with the moan.

However, if operational grades capable of doing the management jobs look at them and say 'no thanks mate, too much hassle, I'll stick with what I'm doing!' then I have less sympathy.

An effective way of sharing experience and changing things - competently - is to put yourself forward and get into a position where you have the authority to make those changes. But with that comes responsibility, and notably the requirement to say 'no' to colleagues occasionally: difficult conversations and performance management etc. Quite a few experienced people don't want those responsibilities.

When folk on here complain that train drivers (etc) are paid too much for a cushy existence, they are rightly told that if it's all so easy, they should apply for a vacancy themselves rather than spouting jealousy from a computer keyboard.

And so it is with management. If it's all so easy and common-sense, then apply for the next role and accept the pay, job title, budgetary responsibilities and people management issues that go with it.

Management is only easy with an unlimited budget and when you are allowed to please people all of the time. Outside of the Executive Remuneration Committee of BP, those circumstances rarely arise.
 

Sprinter153

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I will stick my neck out here and say that it's usually not line managers. My line managers are friendly, professional and supportive. Line managers seem to live in fear of faceless characters above them who do such jobs as auditing Avantix transactions and trying to work out patterns from your sickness record.

We get thank you cards if someone writes or tweets in to compliment, and that's really nice, but there's a general culture here at least that means if you get a few thank you cards you're ridiculed. Some of the most demoralising things that have been said to me in railway employment have come from colleagues. I've been told I show other people up, I've been mocked for following safety protocol to the letter (stopping trains for safety reasons), told by colleagues I shouldn't do revenue and when I took a promotion I was told I was too young and only got it for being a 'company man'. That's what's most likely to affect my performance, knowing that there are people ready to judge and laugh if something goes wrong, not offer support.

I have some bloody brilliant colleagues but I also have some that are poor at their jobs and seem to want to drag others down to their level.
 
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LowLevel

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I will stick my neck out here and say that it's usually not line managers. My line managers are friendly, professional and supportive. Line managers seem to live in fear of faceless characters above them who do such jobs as auditing Avantix transactions and trying to work out patterns from your sickness record.

We get thank you cards if someone writes or tweets in to compliment, and that's really nice, but there's a general culture here at least that means if you get a few thank you cards you're ridiculed. Some of the most demoralising things that have been said to me in railway employment have come from colleagues. I've been told I show other people up, I've been mocked for following safety protocol to the letter (stopping trains for safety reasons), told by colleagues I shouldn't do revenue and when I took a promotion I was told I was too young and only got it for being a 'company man'. That's what's most likely to affect my performance, knowing that there are people ready to judge and laugh if something goes wrong, not offer support.

I have some bloody brilliant colleagues but I also have some that are poor at their jobs and seem to want to drag others down to their level.

We used to have that issue to an extent. Nowadays though it doesn't seem to arise. Drivers and guards with a few exceptions get on well and the few remaining wasters get short shrift from everyone. People definitely have your back during the bad times too.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I must admit my last 5 managers have been real stars, I can't fault them, it's those upstairs who are super sensitive little flowers.

Sadly all of the above have either been moved or have left because of those upstairs, we have one resource manager who's off LTS, because of a manager who came from EMT, and it's the same individual made several driver managers there hand in their notice because he made their life unbearable and move on, I'm quite happy to say that they are now drivers elsewhere and very happy to be out of his grasp.
 

Blindtraveler

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I hope this close nit little group of staff woant mind a meer passenger and enthusiast chipping in here? It makes me very sad that things have got to some of the levels mentioned upthread as it will ultimately impact on the passengers if moralle is low. Go into a branch of any chain outlet be it a puv, shop, hotel or fitness centre which has a good manager then staff will be happy and you leave feeling good. Go to that same chain in another outlet with a crap one and your not gunna satisfied are you? Same goes for the trains I guess, that certainly seams to be happening to staff on 2 tocs local to me.

I appreciate some pax treat staff and trains poorly but Im sure many dont and I just wanna show my support for rail staff and thank you all
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and if management are looking, then if all the spin about wanting to be top of the pile in customer service is indeed more than just spin then start caring about staff and quit bullying. Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

Remember that digree you got? Rember working part time somewhere whilst studdying for it? Remember being made to feel like **** by bullying bosses? Ok now go to the toilet and look in the mirror
 

BantamMenace

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I feel like i should comment here to defend to apparently knowledge-less graduates of this world.

I graduated from a UK top 10 university last summer with a degree in Accounting and Finance and applied to a range of graduate schemes inside and outside the rail industry. I was absolutely gutted to fall at the final hurdle for both the Network Rail and Arriva CrossCountry schemes for positions in Project management and Operations management respectively.

I was lucky enough to gain a position on the unquestionably better rewarded and more competitive and arguably more prestigious Finance scheme at Jaguar Land Rover despite me feeling I was better suited and more enthusiastic (at the time) to the rail industry due to my operational and financial knowledge of the industry as well as my passion to see it thrive again.

In my opinion you have to take the right people on regardless of their knowledge and let them learn and give them time. I didn't know anything about designing, engineering, manufacturing, shipping and selling cars everywhere in the world but you soon learn by getting hands on in the industry.

The days where every boy grows up watching trains each evening; gaining an understanding of whats what whilst gaining a passion for our railways has gone. These days people gain an education to prove they have the ability to learn new things not to study a field that they want to pursue a future in. This shouldn't be forgotten in the rail industry. Bring in fresh young minds and let them learn things for themselves by giving them some free reign to make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons. (Albeit safely)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Yesterday evening I was chatting to the conductor on my TPE service from DEW to HUD. It was a sunny Saturday evening so of course there were plenty of ale trail ****heads on, one of whom decided to light a cig outside the small toilet. The guard (who was stood in the opposite vestibule with me) got on the intercom and without mincing his words, told this idiot that the BTP would be waiting for him if he didn't stop. I then remarked to the guard that if staff were issued with guns such things would stop in an instant. He replied that he'd asked managers for a taser (jokingly) but as his manager was an ex-guard he knew the temptation to use it would be too strong!
 

YoungJohnson

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There would perhaps be more support for management (in reality directors, consultants and DFT rather than line managers as many have mentioned), if they didn't promote rubbish such as DOO, shorter trains, voyagers, de-staffing of stations, uncomfortable trains, scrapping off buffets, and so on, aside from the day to day running of stuff.

It must be hard for guards want to do their best when the management consider them to be surplus to requirements, and for drivers to have any excitement about taking on criminal liability for drunks.
 

tony6499

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Before I retired most managers positions were being given to people from outside the industry in the hope that a manager of a B & Q store can whip those old school railwaymen into shape and get them doing as they were told.

Trouble is that this particular industry is not like a retail store as much as managers and directors would like and that is one of the great failings of the new style managers.
 

70014IronDuke

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So what do you suggest that TOC management do to improve the situation? With the first scenario, would you really expect a TOC to give a bonus for an employee making up time??? That would lead to short cuts being taken.

Not at all, at least not normally. Simply a system of acknowledgment/appreciation.

On the second story, we have graduate schemes and Apprenticeship schemes. Are they not as good as these BR schemes?

I genuinely have no idea. I am not in a position to judge.

Its always easy to look at the past with a clear lovely view, but I'm sure even during that periods, there were a lot of staff who didn't feel valued in their job.

I think you have misjudged somewhat my post, though I understand why. I was not saying BR was wonderful. I'm sure there were staff who said "F*** it. I'm not going to bother." etc, just as some - or many?- appear to do now.
But I am asking, after all these years and studies supposedly to make management aware of how to be good leaders, well ...... is it any better at all, or is it even worse? And if it is, well, shouldn't questions be asked as to why, and what can be done about it?

However, I can certainly vouch for the fact that train crew/station staff would many times work extra hard to regain time. AND - I forgot to put it into my original post, signalling staff too.

There again, I would guess there were some who would say stuff it, I did this and that previously, and it got me nowhere.

It would also be worth pointing out that safety wasn't much as a concern in the old days and staff will always be against new ideas which require staff to take the longer but safer route. ...

Well, this could be a whole new thread. I can only say that in my experience, staff at all grades took safety very seriously. What does appear to have changed is a far stricter set of, and ruthless enforcement of rules, eg on alcohol limits. Personally, I never noticed any dangerous drinking, but it was considered quite normal for non-footplate staff to have a beer at lunch. (Personally, I didn't, or only rarely, as it made me drowsy.)

I presume this enforcement is probably a good thing, but I do wonder if it stifles some unharmful cameraderie in the process. This is the modern way, however.
I forget if there were ever any questionairs/surveys ever handed out to staff for opinions - I'd tend to say there were not.
 

co-tr-paul

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It is not only the operational side staff who are disillusioned. Many engineering side staff are too. Too many managers in it for their pension, not enough staff on the ground and many who have selfish egos and no pride. This leaves most of us no longer willing to be pro active in our role, just active.
 

hairyhandedfool

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...If internal people with the necessary skills are being routinely overlooked in favour of outsiders, then I have sympathy with the moan....

At my TOC it's simple, everything is based on a points system, answer a question a particular way you get points, answer it a subtly different way and you don't. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with experience.
 

Dave1987

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I feel like i should comment here to defend to apparently knowledge-less graduates of this world.

I graduated from a UK top 10 university last summer with a degree in Accounting and Finance and applied to a range of graduate schemes inside and outside the rail industry. I was absolutely gutted to fall at the final hurdle for both the Network Rail and Arriva CrossCountry schemes for positions in Project management and Operations management respectively.

I was lucky enough to gain a position on the unquestionably better rewarded and more competitive and arguably more prestigious Finance scheme at Jaguar Land Rover despite me feeling I was better suited and more enthusiastic (at the time) to the rail industry due to my operational and financial knowledge of the industry as well as my passion to see it thrive again.

In my opinion you have to take the right people on regardless of their knowledge and let them learn and give them time. I didn't know anything about designing, engineering, manufacturing, shipping and selling cars everywhere in the world but you soon learn by getting hands on in the industry.

The days where every boy grows up watching trains each evening; gaining an understanding of whats what whilst gaining a passion for our railways has gone. These days people gain an education to prove they have the ability to learn new things not to study a field that they want to pursue a future in. This shouldn't be forgotten in the rail industry. Bring in fresh young minds and let them learn things for themselves by giving them some free reign to make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons. (Albeit safely)

Yes but unfortunately you have quite a few graduates that come through who think because they have that piece of paper from a uni that automatically makes them better than the people they are in charge of. I've seen graduates start in customer service management positions and straight away come up with ridiculous new initiatives for platform staff because they want to make their mark to look good for their superiors, when all they actually do is end up p***ing off the platform staff they are in charge of. Same things have happened on the operational side of things with graduates put in driver managers jobs even though they have no clue how to drive a train. And you wonder why people get annoyed by graduates?

And I'm curious as to what relevance your degree has in the positions you applied for in the railways? I mean how does Accounting and finance have relevance to railway operations? Surely that's railway finance?
 
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HarleyDavidson

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I always remember sending one graduate running for cover one afternoon.

I came in the best part of an hour late, the temperature was in the 80's and I was desperate for a pee & a refill of my water bottles, so when I keyed off and walked away, this squirt for a better term started getting shirty going on at me about making the train late and performance.

It was at this point red mist descended and I told him in no uncertain terms to **** off, and that I'm entitled to a "Comfort Break" and I WILL be going to get a drink and refill my water bottles before the train will be leaving and that if I'm dehydrated it's dangerous and heat stroke can kill.

He then threw another wobbler at which point I made the less than subtle point that I'd been driving longer than he'd been out his old man's ball bag and it was only a manager on the platform who intervened and told graduate who by now was in tears to take a hike. The manager who intervened heard what was going on and told me I wouldn't hear anything more and I never did.

I never saw the graduate ever again either.

The lesson being, you may have all the degrees and diplomas in the world, but unless you have the people skills to go with them you're not going to last long on the railway.
 
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