TOCs legal responsibility (compensation) for serious delays

[Metal_gee_man]

Having seen SouthEastern twice (recently) on twitter declining any responsibility for consequencial losses when trains are cancelled or severely delayed causing passengers to miss flights

If you need to re book your flight you travel insurance may cover this. Sorry for the disruption ^CH

https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1111754013551276033?s=19

you will need to contact your travel insurance for this ^CH

https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1105602986020085761?s=19
What are your thoughts on what are the passengers legal rights, and that SE are trying to deny passengers by misinforming them of their rights

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-ri...by-a-train-delay-cancellation-or-poor-service

Consequential losses are any additional out-of-pocket expenses you’ve suffered because of your train being delayed or cancelled.

You can do this under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) together with the common law and it is written in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

It could be:

a taxi or uber you had to use because the train was cancelled or did not stop at your station
overtime you’ve had to pay your childcare provider
a missed flight
a hotel room you had to book because the last train of the day was cancelled
costs attributable to a failure to provide disabled access when booked in advance.
But you should take reasonable steps to lessen your losses - so if you’re catching the train to the theatre but a delay means you’ll miss the performance you should look for other ways to get there in time.

These could include another service or taxi, which you can then claim back the cost of.

If there are no other options, you should be able to then claim for the theatre tickets.

I must mention each time I've seen it I've passed on the which link to the complaining passenger but it still isn't on

 

[CyrusWuff]

RDG's guidance on this for passengers is in Condition 32 of the NRCoT:

32. Getting your money back for delays and/or cancellations

32.1. If you are delayed in reaching your destination as a result of a delay or cancellation of a train service, you may be entitled to claim money back. You can make a claim in one or more of the following ways:

32.1.1. through the industry arrangements provided for:
32.1.1.1. in these Conditions; and/or
32.1.1.2. in the Passenger’s Charter of the relevant Train Company and/or
32.1.2. by relying on your statutory rights, e.g. under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

However, you cannot recover the same money twice.

32.2. For claims made under the industry arrangements (set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above) for losses caused by the delay and/or cancellation of a train service, you can only recover up to the price of your ticket. However, in exceptional circumstances, a Train Company may consider claims for other losses. This will be for the Train Company to decide in its sole discretion, unlike your legal rights set out in paragraph 32.1 above. If you wish to ask the Train Company to consider making a discretionary payment, you should write in the first instance to the Train Company at the address which can be found on nationalrail.co.uk or by calling 0345 7 48 49 50. Please note that this does not affect your statutory rights (see paragraph 32.1.2).

Further information can be found on NRE: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/72098.aspx#additional

Individual TOCs should have briefed their staff at the time the CRA came into force for the rail industry in October 2016, but for frontline staff this may have been something that can be summarised as "direct the customer to contact Customer Services".

 

[Greg Read]

Would have thought if you missed a flight, you would claim off your Holiday / Travel insurance that covers 'delays' ?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Would have thought if you missed a flight, you would claim off your Holiday / Travel insurance that covers 'delays' ?

Um no because the TOC is at fault for not carrying you in a timely manner to your destination, this also applies if you fail to make a theatre show, or to see a band!

 

[ComUtoR]

Um no because the TOC is at fault for not carrying you in a timely manner to your destination

Your destination is the station. As in station A to station B

, this also applies if you fail to make a theatre show, or to see a band!

If I got a train into Charing Cross so I can see Kinky Boots tonight. What time should I leave ?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

If I got a train into Charing Cross so I can see Kinky Boots tonight. What time should I leave ?

Now that's a good question because I genuinely don't know what's reasonable (in law) and what's considered arriving early enough to allow for small hold ups

 

[route:oxford]

Would have thought if you missed a flight, you would claim off your Holiday / Travel insurance that covers 'delays' ?

If your rail company had entered administration/collapsed, yes. But in the first instance you make a claim against the organisation that caused the problem.

I have had the cost of an alternative flight paid for (grudgingly) after giving up on a lengthy complaints process and going for a Small Claims Court process instead. They paid up as soon as the documentation was served. Whilst a SCC ruling doesn't become case law, the rail companies really don't want "sad face passenger" on multiple news sites explaining how they'd taken them to court and won.

Just to be clear though, I had to put in a load of work to get the evidencing in order. I had the "time stamped" enquiries from my browser one hour and again 30 minutes before the train was due to depart from National Rail's website. I had undertaken an SAR to obtain the CCTV footage show me arriving at the station in good time for the train as well.

 

[IanD]

If I got a train into Charing Cross so I can see Kinky Boots tonight. What time should I leave ?

We would need to know where you were travelling from, how far from that station you lived, how you intended to get to your start station and what time the show started to even begin to answer that.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I suspect its unreasonable to arrive into a London Terminal at 18.50 for a 19.30 performance if the show is deep in theatreland, but perfectly acceptable if you were attending a show at The Playhouse theatre under the viaduct at Charing Cross but it's depend!
My last example was someone using HS1 to St Pancras to get to Heathrow (nearly a hour away on the Picc line) plus a 2hr check in time in addition to I'd say a 45 min contingency its almost impossible to claim unless you were at St Pancras nearly 4hrs before the scheduled flight time so its all relative

 

[Bald Rick]

If your plane is 2 hours late into Birmingham Airport and you miss your pre booked train to Edinburgh, would the airline be liable for you having to buy a new train ticket?

 

[Quakkerillo]

The which? link you posted does say "What losses can't I claim for?" and lists some that are outside of the control of the TOC, such as "suicides or accidents involving trespassers".
As these delays were caused by a trespasser on a bridge/building outside St Pancras, I believe I can conclude that legally - limited by my general delay repay knowledge + this Which? article -, SouthEastern are not misrepresenting at all their position, and not misinforming anybody in this particular case.

And in the first case you linked, I don't know what the person in question planned, or did. If his flight is at 23:30, and only arrived at Victoria at 23:00, what journey did he make? It only takes 90 minutes from Canterbury to Victoria, half an hour longer than via HighSpeed services. And as far as I know, all SE trains were able to divert to a station (Ebbsfleet, Stratford Intl) after this particular trespassing case came along, from where you'd take either a train to London Bridge or tube from Stratford. Assuming he planned to arrive at 20:30 at the latest, I just don't know how he managed to get 2½ hours delayed to reach Victoria.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

If your plane is 2 hours late into Birmingham Airport and you miss your pre booked train to Edinburgh, would the airline be liable for you having to buy a new train ticket?

Ooohh... I don't know if the Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies to airlines because of their of some companies having non UK legal bases (RyanAir Dublin etc...)

 

[leedstraindude]

Is it reasonable to expect a train company to pay hundreds in compensation when the train ticket might not have even been ten pound.
This is exactly what travel insurance is for. That been said if the insurance companies want to try claim let them it’s there right. But people if tried to use this in place of insurance it should be thrown out and they be told get insurance next time.

 

[LAX54]

Um no because the TOC is at fault for not carrying you in a timely manner to your destination, this also applies if you fail to make a theatre show, or to see a band!

No, Travel Ins covers for travel delays, if you had a saver return or something for twenty quid, you expect the TOC to cough up maybe £1000 for a lost flight ? (TOC's all go bust overnight !)

 

[HullRailMan]

I've seen plenty of passengers griping on twitter about ECML delays over the past few weekends and them potentially missing shows etc. It seem, however, that many people do not factor the potential for disruption into their travel plans so don't have any time to spare if things do wrong. If I was paying hundreds of pounds to see something, I wouldn't be getting a train that only arrived in London 90 minutes before it starts.

Also seen the same on TPE twitter, complaining they will miss their flight because the train is 20 minutes late!

 

[dilbertphil]

I think people need to take some personal responsibility and plan their journeys better. The amount of people I get on airport trains who claim that a 10 or 15 minute delay will cause them to miss their flight is unbelievable. Also the amount of people who travel without sufficient insurance cover is frightening.

 

[hwl]

I think people need to take some personal responsibility and plan their journeys better. The amount of people I get on airport trains who claim that a 10 or 15 minute delay will cause them to miss their flight is unbelievable. Also the amount of people who travel without sufficient insurance cover is frightening.

Yep they probably realise how long it will take to get through the airport only when they are on the train.

If going by road they might make some allowance for unexpected roadworks, accidents or heavy traffic. Or may be not!

 

[hwl]

No, Travel Ins covers for travel delays, if you had a saver return or something for twenty quid, you expect the TOC to cough up maybe £1000 for a lost flight ? (TOC's all go bust overnight !)

Exactly - who would they sue if they got delayed in traffic if they drove?

 

[thedbdiboy]

The key to the CRA legislation is that a right to a claim for consequential loss may arise where the additional loss is directly related to the failure to provide the original service and that failure arises from a lack of care or skill on behalf of the original service provider. It does mean that a TOC cannot wash it's hand of additional losses in every circumstance but it does not create an instant right to the getting the cost of your flight/theatre/whatever tickets back. For that to happen the train company needs to have seriously failed to both provide a service and mitigate the consequences. This is similar to the legal provisions for any business - no company could survive if it became instantly responsible for all the consequences of any failure to provide a service. The process of claiming is initially through the train company; then the ombudsman - but ultimately you can go to court if your think your case is strong enough.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If you are claiming under CRA legislation, then you really should seek independent legal advise first. TOCs (or any company) can not go around telling you to make a claim under it, at best, they can advise consulting a solicitor for advise. But they open themselves up to all kinds of other problems telling people to claim CRA for every delay.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think @thedbdiboy has summed up the position best. There is no blanket provision for making a claim for consequential losses as each case will be treated on its own merits. Some cases will have a good chance of success others will not. But sadly I suppose nuance is less interesting than an extreme view

 

[daikilo]

I think @thedbdiboy has summed up the position best. There is no blanket provision for making a claim for consequential losses as each case will be treated on its own merits. Some cases will have a good chance of success others will not. But sadly I suppose nuance is less interesting than an extreme view

Not only is there no blanket provision, when you purchase a rail ticket there is no guarantee of delivery at a given time, even if you reserve a seat on a specific train. I expect any TOC taken to court for consequential damages linked to arrival time will get all TOC support and a budget beyond that any normal individual can muster. That said, I agree that, in theory, cases could be made for manifest failure to attempt to provide, but it would no doubt be extremely difficult to prove.

 

[AM9]

Is it reasonable to expect a train company to pay hundreds in compensation when the train ticket might not have even been ten pound.
This is exactly what travel insurance is for. That been said if the insurance companies want to try claim let them it’s there right. But people if tried to use this in place of insurance it should be thrown out and they be told get insurance next time.

'Compensation', (in the context of this discussion) is for actual losses incurred and the price of the ticket paid to the TOC whose performance caused those actual losses is totally irrelevant. For example, if I had a ticket from St Albans Abbey to Birmingham International to connect with a flight from the airport and a failure of London Northwestern Railway to meet its advertised arrival time caused me to miss the flight, the compensation for the flight loss would be the same whether I purchased an Anytime single (£42) or an Advance (£7*). The fare itself might be refunded but the compensation would be the same irrespective of the rail ticket price.
* The cheapest commonly available Advance ticket which I normally get whenever I go to the NEC.

 

[hwl]

I think @thedbdiboy has summed up the position best. There is no blanket provision for making a claim for consequential losses as each case will be treated on its own merits. Some cases will have a good chance of success others will not. But sadly I suppose nuance is less interesting than an extreme view

Exactly some marching around the roof of St Pancras as a protest isn't included in a lack of care or skill on behalf of the original service provider. Ditto cable thefts, the Devon saga a couple of days ago, bridge strikes, someone setting up pheasant farm next to a railway line despite prior warning on the impact of bird strikes was likely to increase.
IRJ / impedance bond failure in 3rd rail land happens you can manage it downward but not eliminate it so if the failure rate is minimised is there lack of care/skill ?

 

[daveo]

Your destination is the station. As in station A to station B



If I got a train into Charing Cross so I can see Kinky Boots tonight. What time should I leave ?

Early enough to call in n the psychiatrist beforehand!!

 

[mark-h]

The consequential loss incurred by a delay will vary significantly between passengers depending on the reason for their journey. There would also be little correlation between the ticket price and the consequential loss. If the TOCs had to cover any consequential losses then it would have to result in a rise in ticket prices. This would also affect passengers who would not be able to claim a financial loss for the delayed journey including those who chose to take an earlier train to reduce the impact of a delay.

 

[3141]

A question that's very difficult to answer: should I assume that there will be a delay to my journey, and therefore catch an earlier train than the one that will get me where I want to be in good time if everything runs smoothly? Similarly in the case of a car journey: should I assume there will be hold-ups? One relevant factor may be the importance of what I'm travelling for. If it's a plane for the start of an exotic holiday I probably ought to allow at least an hour in case something goes wrong, whereas if I'm going to work I can probably leave at whatever the normal time might be. If I'm travelling for 40 miles round the M25 during the rush hour it would be foolish not to add quite a lot of time for delays, but at 3.00 in the morning I might allow just 40 minutes.

Even if I might successfully claim compensation, I'd actually prefer not to miss my plane, so I tend to do the journey the night before and stay at a cheap hotel near the airport. But not everyone can do that.

 

[route:oxford]

Even if I might successfully claim compensation, I'd actually prefer not to miss my plane, so I tend to do the journey the night before and stay at a cheap hotel near the airport. But not everyone can do that.

For some people, flying is just domestic public transport. I have colleagues who commute several days a week from EDI/GLA to LCY or LHR.

I myself travel often enough to buy a British Airways Carnet - to suggest booking hotel accommodation at a public transport interchange in order to be confident of a successful public transport connection is utterly ridiculous.

 

[maire23]

I was caught in the chaos at MKC (where I was trying to get to) the other week and ended up abandoning my journey at Rugby and getting a taxi.
I claimed the full amount for the cab back on expenses (fortunately my uni, where I had a meeting, were fantastically understanding about this) I didn’t expect the rail company to pay for the taxi though. I did however expect a refund for my ticket (I arrived 2 hours late) and this I got, in full and impressingly swiftly. A £25 journey ended costing me £90 but it is what is- not the train company’s fault.

 

[Mag_seven]

The amount of people I get on airport trains who claim that a 10 or 15 minute delay will cause them to miss their flight is unbelievable.

I believe that most insurance companies will not pay out for missed flights if you have not scheduled your arrival time at the airport to be two hours at the latest before a short haul flight or three hours at the latest for a long haul flight.