ToD from station with no machines (or staff)?

[thewolf]

Hi all,

I've booked a journey for tomorrow morning starting from my local station, Hamstead. I've selected the 'ticket on departure' option from Hamstead, however there are no machines at the station - I assume I'll be able to collect them from the ticket office*?


*Said ticket office seems to be somewhat spontaneous recently, particularly at weekends (being a bank holiday tomorrow) - What do I do if the ticket office is also closed? Give my reference number to the guard? Show the idiots on the barrier at New Street any old ticket and pick my actual tickets up from a machine there?

 

[First class]

Hi all,

I've booked a journey for tomorrow morning starting from my local station, Hamstead. I've selected the 'ticket on departure' option from Hamstead, however there are no machines at the station - I assume I'll be able to collect them from the ticket office*?


*Said ticket office seems to be somewhat spontaneous recently, particularly at weekends (being a bank holiday tomorrow) - What do I do if the ticket office is also closed? Give my reference number to the guard? Show the idiots on the barrier at New Street any old ticket and pick my actual tickets up from a machine there?

The piece of paper will clearly state you should not travel on that alone.

However, the ticket office is open and able to issue your tickets for you as long as you have the reference AND the original card you used to pay with.

Ticket office is open from 05:34 - 23:50.

If it is closed, maybe put 5p in the Permit to Travel machine and go find the guard???

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Someone may be able to look up the availability of ToD at that station in the FRPP. I can in the morning if no one else does it before then. I know that not all ticket offices can do it, so it is possible that you may not be able to pick it up there at all. I can only suggest trying to get to a station where you definately can get it today, or you *may* find you have to buy a ticket to go part of the way and maybe get it refunded later.

Were you given the option to pick it up there or was there no where to specify that?

 

[First class]

Someone may be able to look up the availability of ToD at that station in the FRPP. I can in the morning if no one else does it before then. I know that no Northern ticket offices can do it, so it is possible that you may not be able to pick it up there at all. I can only suggest trying to get to a station where you definately can get it today, or you *may* find you have to buy a ticket to go part of the way and maybe get it refunded later.

Were you given the option to pick it up there or was there no where to specify that?

No need, NRES specifies the option:

ToD from TVM - No
ToD from over the counter - Yes

Even tells you what to do, "A permit to travel machine is available for when the booking office is closed".
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/hsd/details.html - ticket buying and collection

 

[Mojo]

What website did you book the tickets from, as the websites I regularly use don't offer that station. This may be because they don't offer collection from the machines.

 

[thewolf]

Booked it through the London Midland website, Mojo.

I'm hoping the ticket office will be open as it will be quite early in the morning. I know the opening times are first train - last train, but in recent months this has rarely been the case. Seems to be open for at least part of the day on weekdays, but haven't seen anyone there on a weekend for a while.

In case it is closed - does anyone know if the guard, or the staff with ticket machines before the barrier at New Street would be able to print them off for me? Or will I have to go through to the concourse to use one of the TVMs there?

 

[moonrakerz]

The piece of paper will clearly state you should not travel on that alone.

What piece of paper ? I buy plenty of Advance tickets and there is nothing such as that on the paperwork I get; It just assumes that I will collect the tickets with no problems

you *may* find you have to buy a ticket to go part of the way and maybe get it refunded later.

Just why should someone who has paid in advance for their tickets and who cannot collect them through no fault of theirs be forced to pay again and reclaim it ? - I would flatly refuse !

Take a copy of the confirmation that you got at the time of booking and argue the toss on the train if need be...........

What is this "Permit to Travel" machine ? They don't exist in my neck of the woods !:roll::roll:

 

[First class]

Just why should someone who has paid in advance for their tickets and who cannot collect them through no fault of theirs be forced to pay again and reclaim it ? - I would flatly refuse !

Take a copy of the confirmation that you got at the time of booking and argue the toss on the train if need be...........

What is this "Permit to Travel" machine ? They don't exist in my neck of the woods !:roll::roll:

Although it is an awkward position to be in, the NRCoC state that you must hav a valid ticket or permit to travel when travelling from a station from where these facilities exist. Travelling on a reference number (which the printout states something like "THIS IS NOT A TICKET, YOU MUST COLLECT YOUR TICKET BEFORE TRAVELLING".

As the OP is travelling from a station with Penalty Fares, if the ticket office is closed, a Permit to Travel may be required which will take 5p.

"Argue the toss" is likely to cause more problems.

 

[moonrakerz]

Although it is an awkward position to be in, the NRCoC state that you must hav a valid ticket or permit to travel when travelling from a station from where these facilities exist. Travelling on a reference number (which the printout states something like "THIS IS NOT A TICKET, YOU MUST COLLECT YOUR TICKET BEFORE TRAVELLING".

As the OP is travelling from a station with Penalty Fares, if the ticket office is closed, a Permit to Travel may be required which will take 5p.

"Argue the toss" is likely to cause more problems.

I would argue that this part of NRCoC
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make." (my highlighting)
would cover the case where you could not collect the ticket - providing of course, that you carried a confirmation print out.

This condition may also have a bearing:
"7. Train Company’s responsibilities
The Train Company whose trains you have the right to use, or who has agreed to provide you with any other goods or services, is responsible for providing the goods or services it has agreed to provide"
It may well have issued you with an "agreement to provide" - If not the journey, certainly the tickets.

 

[First class]

I would argue that this part of NRCoC
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make." (my highlighting)
would cover the case where you could not collect the ticket - providing of course, that you carried a confirmation print out.

This condition may also have a bearing:
"7. Train Company’s responsibilities
The Train Company whose trains you have the right to use, or who has agreed to provide you with any other goods or services, is responsible for providing the goods or services it has agreed to provide"
It may well have issued you with an "agreement to provide" - If not the journey, certainly the tickets.

A piece of paper which clearly states that it is NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL is not authorising you to board a train, certainly not an authority to travel! A permit to travel does however.

They are agreeing to provide a train service (so long as you comply with the contract - NRCoC if you hold valid tickets, which until you collect them, you don't).

There is no loss to the passenger which confuses me why you are so concerned! The customer would get a refund of any ticket or permit to travel. It is just a bit unfortunate that they have to wait until they arrive at a booking office to do it, (which will probably be their destination station anyway!)

 

[Mojo]

I imagine if I rolled up at Birmingham New Street or Euston with a Permit to Travel issued at Hamstead station but not buying a ticket, they'd tell me to get lost and write a letter to customer services.

 

[First class]

I imagine if I rolled up at Birmingham New Street or Euston with a Permit to Travel issued at Hamstead station but not buying a ticket, they'd tell me to get lost and write a letter to customer services.

Well that may be the reality, (although that is more the fault of the member of staff on duty).

The rules specify that a Permit for Travel/Ticket would be refunded... (I believe it says, "if the ticket office is in a position to offer one").

 

[thewolf]

I can't envisage having any trouble at the barrier at New Street if I get that far without my tix.

I've got the return portion of a Stoke - Selly Oak that hasn't ended yet, I'll just use that to get past them. I used a Stoke - Manchester seat reservation to get past them a while back as a 'social experiment' (don't worry - I did have a valid ticket)

 

[WestCoast]

. I used a Stoke - Manchester seat reservation to get past them a while back as a 'social experiment' (don't worry - I did have a valid ticket)

Last year coming home from the airport I accidentally showed an old DB ticket for a local journey in Germany to the G4S security guards at Manchester Piccadilly! They waved me through

 

[Anon Mouse]

Last year coming home from the airport I accidentally showed an old DB ticket for a local journey in Germany to the G4S security guards at Manchester Piccadilly! They waved me through

yet they stopped me once dispite wearing full uniform and carrying my traps!

 

[WestCoast]

yet they stopped me once dispite wearing full uniform and carrying my traps!

And they are themselves now wearing the Northern uniform

I find it's two extremes with them - either uncaring and letting people through with a Tesco Clubcard or picking up on 'dark' photos on railcards!

 

[Chapeltom]

Yeah, my photo is dark and is rather scratched. I'm planning to travel to West Lancashire tomorrow and will deliberately change before Manchester Picc to avoid G4S, changing at Manchester Picc recently has been a nightmare passing through 13/14.

 

[WestCoast]

Yeah, my photo is dark and is rather scratched. I'm planning to travel to West Lancashire tomorrow and will deliberately change before Manchester Picc to avoid G4S, changing at Manchester Picc recently has been a nightmare passing through 13/14.

From the South of Manchester, you can avoid Picc guards by taking a Hazel Grove - Preston service.

The problem is G4S are everywhere now, Preston p1/2 (although that can be easily avoided:roll, Wigan Wallgate, Man Vic, not sure if they are at Bolton? I've never really has a bad encounter with G4S (just flash your ticket and walk on) and to be honest they don't look my railcard much!

Anyway, getting back on thread topic, I never realised before a few weeks ago you could collect tickets from some station offices. Northern offer no form of ToD on their stations whatsoever. I had to collect some tickets from Thirsk, which is run by TPE and it all went to plan!

 

[142094]

Last time I was at Bolton there were RPIs checking tickets but not sure if they were G4S - were wearing Northern uniforms.

 

[WestCoast]

Last time I was at Bolton there were RPIs checking tickets but not sure if they were G4S - were wearing Northern uniforms.

Depends how recently, G4S have quite recently been given Northern uniforms...

 

[moonrakerz]

A piece of paper which clearly states that it is NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL is not authorising you to board a train, certainly not an authority to travel! A permit to travel does however.

You are missing my point here. When I buy Advance tickets on line, I get an acknowledgement/receipt that I have PAID for my rail tickets - it does NOT say this piece of paper is NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL - I can therefore PROVE that I have paid for my ticket. The supplier has accepted my money, it is in breach of contract by not enabling me to collect them as it indicated that I could on its website.

A "permit to travel" is NOT obtainable in any station that I have ever seen in this neck of the woods - they might be in London/Manchester or wherever - but they just don't exist round here.
My local station has a booking office open until around 1330 and two TVMs, which sometimes work - it is not uncommon to find none of these outlets available.

There is no loss to the passenger which confuses me why you are so concerned! The customer would get a refund of any ticket or permit to travel. It is just a bit unfortunate that they have to wait until they arrive at a booking office to do it, (which will probably be their destination station anyway!)

But WHY should the passenger be made to pay again and reclaim the funds ? He has kept to his side of the contract - the ticket supplier is the one in breach of contract.
I can think of no other case whereby the innocent party in a breach of contract has to pay up again to the party who has broken the contract, then try and recover his monies after the event. If you ordered a load of groceries to be delivered from Tesco and they didn't turn up - what would your response be if Tesco told you that you had to re-order, pay again for the missing groceries then claim it back ?

As I said on an earlier thread - has this ever been tested in Court ? I feel that it probably hasn't because the TOCs are aware they are on shaky ground. It doesn't get that far because the passenger eventually capitulates under pressure and pays up.

 

[Smethwickian]

But WHY should the passenger be made to pay again and reclaim the funds ? He has kept to his side of the contract - the ticket supplier is the one in breach of contract.
I can think of no other case whereby the innocent party in a breach of contract has to pay up again to the party who has broken the contract, then try and recover his monies after the event.

Hear, hear.

If London Midland advertises ticket office opening hours and says that tickets can be collected, how can it be the passenger's fault if they cannot then do so? Why should the OP risk losing cash - even if it's just 5p - in principle, when he's paid his money and has any kind of receipt or email confirmation that shows this?

I find the unbending and suspicious attitude of some railway staff on this forum to be very grating.

They just do not see things from the point of view of the average or ordinary passenger who is not 'in the know' of every single minuscule rule, regulation, byelaw, ticket exclusion, validity code, routing guide map, easement and inside-leg-measurement-of-the-TOC's-managing-director when all they want to do is make what should, for them, be a straightforward purchase and journey.

As other posters have suggested, what other customer-facing service or retailer would make people jump through such hoops? Would a supermarket have different prices for just about every different customer depending on what time of the day or week it was or even when they first thought about shopping, worked out through complex formulae in a book thousands of pages thick?

 

[142094]

Depends how recently, G4S have quite recently been given Northern uniforms...

Quite recently, end of last month. Although that was the first time I've had to cross the bridge at Bolton so never seen them there before. On the same day at Wigan Wallgate the RPIs there were in G4S uniforms.

 

[Mojo]

You can still tell they're G4S as their namebages have the G4S logo on them.

Having never had any reason to come across G4S before, I wasn't sure what to expect, but on Monday it was requested that they excess a CDS with 1625 Railcard discount to a SDS with no discount. The process was performed correctly and the appropriate excess was charged!

 

[WestCoast]

Having never had any reason to come across G4S before, I wasn't sure what to expect, but on Monday it was requested that they excess a CDS with 1625 Railcard discount to a SDS with no discount. The process was performed correctly and the appropriate excess was charged!

That is impressive by their usual standards, I wonder if Northern has finally been listening to complaints and moans about them and given them more training?

 

[bnm]

You are missing my point here. When I buy Advance tickets on line, I get an acknowledgement/receipt that I have PAID for my rail tickets - it does NOT say this piece of paper is NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL - I can therefore PROVE that I have paid for my ticket. The supplier has accepted my money, it is in breach of contract by not enabling me to collect them as it indicated that I could on its website.

A "permit to travel" is NOT obtainable in any station that I have ever seen in this neck of the woods - they might be in London/Manchester or wherever - but they just don't exist round here.
My local station has a booking office open until around 1330 and two TVMs, which sometimes work - it is not uncommon to find none of these outlets available.

But WHY should the passenger be made to pay again and reclaim the funds ? He has kept to his side of the contract - the ticket supplier is the one in breach of contract.
I can think of no other case whereby the innocent party in a breach of contract has to pay up again to the party who has broken the contract, then try and recover his monies after the event. If you ordered a load of groceries to be delivered from Tesco and they didn't turn up - what would your response be if Tesco told you that you had to re-order, pay again for the missing groceries then claim it back ?

As I said on an earlier thread - has this ever been tested in Court ? I feel that it probably hasn't because the TOCs are aware they are on shaky ground. It doesn't get that far because the passenger eventually capitulates under pressure and pays up.

Nothing to add to that, except: Bravo!

 

[island]

You can still tell they're G4S as their namebages have the G4S logo on them.

Having never had any reason to come across G4S before, I wasn't sure what to expect, but on Monday it was requested that they excess a CDS with 1625 Railcard discount to a SDS with no discount. The process was performed correctly and the appropriate excess was charged!

The correct process to perform there is to tell the passenger they need a new ticket, not charge an excess.

 

[MikeWh]

The correct process to perform there is to tell the passenger they need a new ticket, not charge an excess.

That would be the case with no railcard, but what about if the ticket was just not valid because of the time of day. Surely that is then an excess?

 

[island]

That would be the case with no railcard, but what about if the ticket was just not valid because of the time of day. Surely that is then an excess?

If it's needing excessed up to the minimum fare (or to the normal fare if under £12) I suppose you can do that.

 

[thefab444]

Hi all,

I've booked a journey for tomorrow morning starting from my local station, Hamstead. I've selected the 'ticket on departure' option from Hamstead, however there are no machines at the station - I assume I'll be able to collect them from the ticket office*?

Worth pointing out that the list of TOD enabled stations on many ticketing websites, such as Southern, is incorrect - for example Ashurst (New Forest) is never listed despite having a TOD enabled TVM.

Secondly, you can nearly always pick up your tickets from any TVM regardless of the station you chose in the list, the only exceptions being certain TOC deals.