Today's Pet hate - tipping & self service

[cjp]

Why tip?
I chose my job I do my job and beyond satisfaction, pay and the odd thanks that is all the reward I expect.

Why do taxi drivers who may well be owner drivers who have a fair (to me expensive) tariff expect more for just doing their job. (Chances are if you live in a big city like London you will never see them again anyway.)

If I go to a restaurant I expect to be able receive what I want well prepared and served to me and prices are designed to pay for this and the ambiance. Why should I have to put up with an automatic 12% gratuity being added? We are in the era of minimum wage and living wage so we know a person is not surviving on tips. Something over and above expectations should be rewarded but just doing the job you are paid for?:

I take my car to be service and I get it back clean and working well – in theory- why pay more than the bill.

I get someone to do work for me I pay them what we agreed unless they they have wildly exceeded expectations – when at my discretion I might pay them a bonus or, at a smaller level, give them a pot or jar of home-made marmalade.

What used to be a freely given reward is now an expectation and often not merited.
Why should I have to take positive action to remove something that is not merited and has just added an extras five or ten pound or so to my costs?

Cleaners are often not well paid so should we give the road sweeper a tip? Manners of course suggests a thank you from time to time would not go amiss. Think about it.

Those who cut hair often set their prices so why give them more?

And whilst I am at it – self service check outs or ticket machines for that matter. I am being asked to do what was a real persons job for which I receive nothing, no discount, no pay and if I get a faster service it is because the companies concerned have chosen, rather than to have extra staff, to put me to work for them. This as we know swells company's profits and leads to fewer being employed and less checkouts or ticket offices being in place. And as for those Judas goats (sometimes called queue busters) inviting you to leave the queue and tackle a machine I tell them quite clearly I am not doing someone else's job, that their company need more staff in place and ask why do they not get themselves doing something more useful.

Sorry people but I had to get it off my chest.

 

[Senex]

Why tip?
I chose my job I do my job and beyond satisfaction, pay and the odd thanks that is all the reward I expect.

Why do taxi drivers who may well be owner drivers who have a fair (to me expensive) tariff expect more for just doing their job. (Chances are if you live in a big city like London you will never see them again anyway.)

[And other examples - cut]

Sorry people but I had to get it off my chest.

I so agree with you. And why does it seem to be such an Anglo-American thing. In other countries you may round up to the nearest whole unit, even if that involves only a matter of pence, and that is all that is expected.

If I buy I service, I expect to pay a fair price for what I am buying -- no less, but certainly no more in the way of add-ons for this or that person who may very well have done nothing special beyond the job-specification to merit any extra.

 

[yorkie]

Why tip?
I chose my job I do my job and beyond satisfaction, pay and the odd thanks that is all the reward I expect.

Agreed

Why do taxi drivers who may well be owner drivers who have a fair (to me expensive) tariff expect more for just doing their job. (Chances are if you live in a big city like London you will never see them again anyway.)

I would say "keep the change" if I felt the fare was reasonable and it wasn't much less than, say, a fiver or a tenner, or some other handy amount, partly to avoid faffing around, but I agree a tip absolutely should not be expected by a taxi driver.

I just did a search for this and interestingly this Trip Advisor page says the same thing:
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Travel-g186216-s606/United-Kingdom:Tipping.And.Etiquette.html

It is not a requirement to tip in taxis, but it is customary to round up to the nearest pound on metered taxi journeys, more as a convenience to both passenger and driver than as a tip.

If I go to a restaurant I expect to be able receive what I want well prepared and served to me and prices are designed to pay for this and the ambiance.

Agreed.

Why should I have to put up with an automatic 12% gratuity being added?

It's absurd; arguably we should ask for it to be removed.

Tipping isn't ideal but I don't mind doing so, providing it is completely discretionary (and that should not mean having to ask to have it removed!) and reasonable.

12% is well beyond reasonable.

We are in the era of minimum wage and living wage so we know a person is not surviving on tips. Something over and above expectations should be rewarded but just doing the job you are paid for?:

Agreed, though if someone does provide exceptional service there is no harm in it, but it should not be obligatory.

I take my car to be service and I get it back clean and working well – in theory- why pay more than the bill.

I don't have a car (and hopefully never will have to), but surely they don't expect a tip too?

I get someone to do work for me I pay them what we agreed unless they they have wildly exceeded expectations – when at my discretion I might pay them a bonus or, at a smaller level, give them a pot or jar of home-made marmalade.

Spot on.

What used to be a freely given reward is now an expectation and often not merited.
Why should I have to take positive action to remove something that is not merited and has just added an extras five or ten pound or so to my costs?

Indeed!

Cleaners are often not well paid so should we give the road sweeper a tip? Manners of course suggests a thank you from time to time would not go amiss. Think about it.

Good point, though in that case I guess the 'logic' is they are not providing a service to you as an individual, but I still see your point.

A group of us went to Paris recently, and it was pointed out to me that in France the service is included in the advertised price. I know others who share the view that this is a good idea.

 

[Tom B]

It's interesting that only certain trades expect tips. It seems to be more prevelant amongst the self-employed (e.g. cabbies, hairdressers etc) but then waitresses in restaurants are an exception.

Personally I will only offer a tip if the service has been, in some way, far beyond what's expected. For instance, if a cabbie displays particular good knowledge and humour to get you through a traffic jam, or if a sparky has to go way beyond the norm in order to install an extra socket.
I once had a British Telecom linesman in to provide service. He declared the NTE box (the 'master socket', property of BT) to be out of date and need replacing, for which he said I would be billed £50 "unless you fancy slipping us a twenty?". As it happens, I am well aware that the NTE box is the property and responsibility of BT, so if it is out of date they have to replace it. I wonder how many people would have slipped him £20?

On a related note I certainly remember it being customary for householders back home to leave a crate of beer for the binmen come Christmas and I am sure that there are other examples, where people provide a regular service and get consideration come December. (I do from people who know the value in keeping technical staff on side!).

 

[AM9]

I once had a British Telecom linesman in to provide service. He declared the NTE box (the 'master socket', property of BT) to be out of date and need replacing, for which he said I would be billed £50 "unless you fancy slipping us a twenty?". As it happens, I am well aware that the NTE box is the property and responsibility of BT, so if it is out of date they have to replace it. I wonder how many people would have slipped him £20?

Those who do would be the dishonest ones. If they knew that it is BT's responsibility, they wouldn't have anything to do with it. Those who don't know, when presented with what seems like getting something for less, jump at it.
Many years ago, I spoke to somebody who had a Pedlar's certificate. He used to sell various articles, (watches, radios etc.) bought wholesale from local warehouses, adding a percentage to earn a living. He found that when he sold them in pub's (with the landlords' permission), he was often asked where the items came from. If he refused to tell them, saying something evasive, the presumption by the buyers was that they were stolen goods, - and they couldn't buy them quick enough. If he said the truth, there was less interest in the goods.
In reality, dishonesty and greed are weaknesses that can be easily exploited. More fool those who think that they are getting something for nothing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm very happy to tip for good service which essentially includes the following:

Having the cars cleaned.

Restaurants and cafe's.

Having the house cleaned.

Having our hair cut.

Takeaway food.

Having the windows cleaned.

Post man, newspaper delivery and wheelie bin at Christmas.

None of the people who do any of those things earn fantastic money and yet they provide excellent service and deserve their tips. I think those who decide not to tip if they've received good service are nothing more than pig ignorant.

Our three youngest children have not yet graduated and have part time jobs in the summer / Christmas. Their wages amount to little more than minimum wage, their jobs are customer facing and they rely on tips to top up their wages. Not to mention zero hours contracts and all that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do tip, for the reasons you state, but I would rather a change in the law ensuring a proper wage for service professionals and a ban on "service not included", as in France.

If service is terrible I would seek a heavier discount than 10% so the tip isn't a great tool for that anyway.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[me123]

I'm quite happy to tip, and by UK standards I'm probably quite a generous tipper - when the service is exceptional. I have been known to not tip for poor service (I once cheekily wrote on a receipt; "TIP: if you treat customers with respect, they may leave you money at this point" - the worst service I have ever encountered FWIW). I am quite happy to thank people for good service and show my appreciation in this manner, but I do understand why people say it shouldn't be necessary, and I fully agree that service staff should earn a respectable wage before any tips.

I will usually tip in any establishment that offers table service, and usually tip a takeaway delivery driver too. It hasn't occurred to me to tip my hairdresser, since I loathe the experience (but I suppose that isn't their fault, so maybe I'm being unfair). I also don't tip taxi drivers - I rarely use taxis, but I find them to be expensive for the service they offer (the exception being the one cabbie who actually ignored the meter and rounded the fare down by a few quid). I absolutely refuse to tip in places like Costa and Starbucks, where no table service is offered anyway.

One thing that does annoy me a bit is when us Brits go to America. In the US, tipping in the region of 20% is customary in restaurants. This is because the wages for service staff in America are dire, and (particularly in cities like New York) they really do rely on tips to survive. I will completely agree with anyone who states that this is a ridiculous situation - it is criminal. But it's how service works in the US. Withholding your tip/undertipping to make a point won't change anything, other than making your server slightly poorer. So please, if you're in America, respect that custom and if your server has done a good job, tip appropriately. (I have also withheld tips in the US for dire service FWIW). And do remember that a service charge is your tip - someone in America once tried to get me to tip 20% on top of a 22% service charge by calculating a suggested 20% tip and handwriting it on the receipt - I got my pen out and drew an arrow to the service charge, and walked away.

It is also worth remembering that in some cultures, tipping is almost frowned upon. In Italy for example, you generally leave a small tip but even the 10% we're used to leaving would be seen as obscene (Usually you just round up to the nearest €uro). In Japan and China, apparently tipping is seen as outright offensive.

I think all in all that Europe is the closest to the best balance - you can tip as a way of saying thank you and recognising good service, but it's not compulsory to do so. I'd like us to move towards this model.

One thing I found quite comical and ridiculous/depressing was in a cruise brochure that my parents were reading a few weeks back - I'll have to paraphrase slightly as I don't have the brochure to hand but it went something like this.

Tipping is a customary way of saying thank you and recognising good service. $15 per person per night should cover tips. This will be automatically added to your bill at the end of your cruise.

 

[Gutfright]

This thread reminds me of a scene at the start of the film Reservoir Dogs...

Nice Guy Eddie: C'mon, throw in a buck!
Mr. Pink: Uh-uh, I don't tip.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't tip?
Mr. Pink: I don't believe in it.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't believe in tipping?
Mr. Blue: You know what these chicks make? They make very little.
Mr. Pink: Don't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit.
Nice Guy Eddie: I don't even know a flipping person who'd have the gall to say that. Let me get this straight: you don't ever tip, huh?
Mr. Pink: I don't tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I'll tip if somebody really deserves a tip. If they put forth the effort, I'll give them something extra. But I mean, this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned they're just doing their job.
Mr. Blue: Hey, this girl was nice.
Mr. Pink: She was OK. But she wasn't anything special.
Mr. Blue: What's special? Take you in the back and smile at your personality?
Nice Guy Eddie: I'd go over twelve percent for that.
Mr. Pink: Look, I ordered coffee, alright? And we been here a long flipping time and she's only filled my cup three times. When I order coffee I want it filled six times.
Mr. Blonde: Six times? Well, what if she's too flipping busy?
Mr. Pink: The words "too flipping busy" shouldn't be in a waitress' vocabulary.
Nice Guy Eddie: Excuse me Mr. Pink, but the last flipping thing you need is another cup of coffee.
Mr. Pink: My word I mean, these ladies aren't starving to death. They make minimum wage. You know, I used to work minimum wage and when I did I wasn't lucky enough to have a job that society deemed tipworthy.
Mr. Blue: You don't care if they're counting on your tips to live?
Mr. Pink: [rubbing his middle finger and thumb together] You know what this is? The world's smallest violin playing just for the waitresses.
Mr. White: You don't have any idea what you're talking about. These people bust their guts. This is a hard job.
Mr. Pink: So is working at McDonald's, but you don't see anyone tip them, do ya? Why not?, they're serving you food. But no, society says don't tip these guys over here, but tip these guys over here. That's nonsense!
Mr. White: Waitressing is the number one occupation for female non-college graduates in this country. It's the one job basically any woman can get, and make a living on. The reason is because of their tips.
Mr. Pink: Forget all that.
Mr. Brown: My word.
Mr. Pink: I mean I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's messed up. That ain't my fault. It would appear to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government hits in the wallet on a regular basis. If you show me a piece of paper that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And this non-college nonsense you're givin' me, I got two words for that: learn to flippin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big flippin' surprise.
Mr. Orange: He's convinced me. Gimme my dollar back!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'll generally round up to a convenient figure depending on what cash I have, and if I'm in a restaurant I'll do the 10/20% thing, again depending on what's convenient. Particularly in London where the cost of living is high particularly for those in low-paid jobs. Though if I'm only rounding up by a factor of 20p or so it can feel like I'm being insulting. The point about leaving a crate of beer for the bin men is a good one, it's not something I've considered doing because it never occurred to me to do so. Though in my youth I had a paper round and at the beginning of December I'd put a Christmas card through every door in the hope of a Christmas tip- managed to make £110 or so one year which was a lot of money for me as a 14-year-old!

 

[WestCoast]

And whilst I am at it – self service check outs or ticket machines for that matter. I am being asked to do what was a real persons job for which I receive nothing, no discount, no pay and if I get a faster service it is because the companies concerned have chosen, rather than to have extra staff, to put me to work for them. This as we know swells company's profits and leads to fewer being employed and less checkouts or ticket offices being in place. And as for those Judas goats (sometimes called queue busters) inviting you to leave the queue and tackle a machine I tell them quite clearly I am not doing someone else's job, that their company need more staff in place and ask why do they not get themselves doing something more useful.:

There should definitely be a choice of manned or self-service even if you just have a few items. The supermarket I used to work in replaced six basket checkouts and three large checkouts with eighteen self-service checkouts. The result is ultimately less waiting time but poorer service.

 

[bb21]

In Japan and China, apparently tipping is seen as outright offensive.

It's a myth.

 

[Darandio]

One thing I found quite comical and ridiculous/depressing was in a cruise brochure that my parents were reading a few weeks back - I'll have to paraphrase slightly as I don't have the brochure to hand but it went something like this.

We were looking at Royal Caribbean last week for a possible 14 night cruise to the Canaries and North Africa in October. They call it 'gratuities'.

They even happily suggest that the best way is to pay up front for the whole voyage, before you have even experienced the service. If we paid up front, this is what it was.....

Pre-pay your gratuities now (except tips for bar staff) and don't worry about it again. This will add £525.92 to your package price.

 

[bb21]

£500?!

Who are you tipping? The whole starving population of Africa? How about the cruise company just paying the staff a decent wage?

 

[richw]

If I go somewhere and they automatically add an optional service charge to the bill, I request its removal and won't make any tip of any kind out of principal, even if I think it's deserving of more than the automatically added amount.
I don't use taxis but on occasion where I do, if the tariff comes to £X.90 I will round to the pound, like wise most taxi drivers round here if it comes to £X.10 they will round down.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I go somewhere and they automatically add an optional service charge to the bill, I request its removal and won't make any tip of any kind out of principal, even if I think it's deserving of more than the automatically added amount.
I don't use taxis but on occasion where I do, if the tariff comes to £X.90 I will round to the pound, like wise most taxi drivers round here if it comes to £X.10 they will round down.

Just use Uber. Cheaper, cashless, and no tip expected.

 

[richw]

Just use Uber. Cheaper, cashless, and no tip expected.

Easier said than done. They don't exist in Cornwall!

 

[me123]

Pre-pay your gratuities now (except tips for bar staff) and don't worry about it again. This will add £525.92 to your package price.

TTFO. That's an absolute wind up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a myth.

I've no personal experience of either country, so I'll apologise if I'm peddling a myth. But it is true that tipping culture varies dramatically from country to country.

 

[bb21]

I've no personal experience of either country, so I'll apologise if I'm peddling a myth. But it is true that tipping culture varies dramatically from country to country.

It's a widely circulated myth. I don't know how it gained popularity but it seemed to have started when the tipping culture in America began to be widely criticised.

It is not expected in those countries, for sure, as it was never a custom. Perhaps in Japan even less so, but even there I have had tips well received before, but in China it is appreciated due to the low wages many restaurant staff get, but only for exceptional services, and not normally exceeding perhaps 5% of the bill.

 

[Darandio]

TTFO. That's an absolute wind up.

I dread to think what they would quote you on something like a 6 month voyage.

 

[richw]

This article is great for guides on tipping

http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2008-11-11/etiquette-101-tipping-guide

It suggests in China not tipping at a locals restaurant or lower class places due to culture but to do so in posher tourist places

 

[bb21]

This article is great for guides on tipping

http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2008-11-11/etiquette-101-tipping-guide

It suggests in China not tipping at a locals restaurant or lower class places due to culture but to do so in posher tourist places

There never was such a thing, although what often happens is at many places you are unlikely to get exceptional service.

 

[DelayRepay]

The point about leaving a crate of beer for the bin men is a good one, it's not something I've considered doing because it never occurred to me to do so.

My mum always used to tip the bin men at Christmas - and strangely enough they seemed to waive the "no extra bags of rubbish" rule for most of the year. She also used to put the kettle on when she saw the bin lorry, so they could fill their flasks. She used to tip the postman and the milk man (remember them?!) too.

I never even see my bin men. Every time I do see the postman it's a different person, and he's normally walking away after shoving a "while you were out" card through, even though I was not out. And I've never had a milkman...

The only people I've tipped this year were the carpet fitters who fitted my mum's new carpet - and the reason for the tip was two of the guys helped me carry some of the furniture back (they didn't have to - I had a friend booked to come round later to help me sort it out but they offered to do it).

 

[richw]

My mum always used to tip the bin men at Christmas - and strangely enough they seemed to waive the "no extra bags of rubbish" rule for most of the year. She also used to put the kettle on when she saw the bin lorry, so they could fill their flasks. She used to tip the postman and the milk man (remember them?!) too.

I never even see my bin men. Every time I do see the postman it's a different person, and he's normally walking away after shoving a "while you were out" card through, even though I was not out. And I've never had a milkman...

The only people I've tipped this year were the carpet fitters who fitted my mum's new carpet - and the reason for the tip was two of the guys helped me carry some of the furniture back (they didn't have to - I had a friend booked to come round later to help me sort it out but they offered to do it).

Why didn't the person who fitted my carpets get tipped.... Probably deserved a big tip, an entire 3 bed house with 8 rooms in total done in 4 hours! Oh yeah I didn't tip myself, but did learn none of my walls are straight

 

[Iskra]

In Italy for example, you generally leave a small tip but even the 10% we're used to leaving would be seen as obscene (Usually you just round up to the nearest €uro).

I think all in all that Europe is the closest to the best balance - you can tip as a way of saying thank you and recognising good service, but it's not compulsory to do so. I'd like us to move towards this model.

I travel to Italy several times a year and have a house out there:

In the tourist areas tipping has become normal, and unfortunately in some places; expected. In my experience this is mainly in the North or in Rome.

In the South/less touristy places, tipping is not expected and is considered unusual, but it certainly isn't frowned upon; it's genuinely seen as a pleasant bonus and it can actually make a real difference to someone's ability to do something a bit special (I do mean a bit special: like have a beer in a bar or take their kids for an ice cream) because the wages are so poor. 10% would not be seen as obscene.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A different pespective:

I run a business, which involves the collection of tips. We don't ask for tips, we don't do a service charge, we don't expect a tip and it doesn't make that much difference to anyone's wages. We generally like what we do and we enjoy making people happy. A 'thank you' with a genuine smile is more satisfying than any tip to me. However... what it does do, is it allows us to go out for a meal/day-out as a team on a quarterly basis where money is not a barrier to someone enjoying themselves, which I think is a nice thing to do on top of the rewards/recognition that my business provides out of its own funds.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -

When I go out, I'll tip if it's good. Not otherwise. I resent services charges.

The move to (contactless) card transactions is slowly killing tipping I feel.

 

[43021HST]

Having not been abroad very often, I wonder what happens in places like the US if you don't leave a tip? Do you get barred or something?

 

[507021]

I will usually tip taxi drivers, and occasionally in restaurants.

 

[me123]

The move to (contactless) card transactions is slowly killing tipping I feel.

That may be true in some industries (taxi cabs and coffee shops spring to mind - incidentally, where I don't tip anyway!), but I"m not too convinced that it's true in the restaurant industry. Unless someone is dining solo, they're not likely to pay <£30 for their meal. And even if they do pay by card, it doesn't preclude a tip - I always pay tips in cash as a rule (I'd rather the waiters get it directly, and do with it as they please), but lots of restaurants allow you to add a gratuity onto your card payment should you wish to do so. I don't see why contactless would necessarily change that. Lots of money coming into a restaurant is already on a card, and I'm not convinced that it has changed tipping etiquette.

 

[J-2739]

Having not been abroad very often, I wonder what happens in places like the US if you don't leave a tip? Do you get barred or something?

You get dirty looks, I presume.

 

[me123]

Having not been abroad very often, I wonder what happens in places like the US if you don't leave a tip? Do you get barred or something?

I've not had any issues when I've (deliberately) not tipped or undertipped, but of course I'm going to make a hasty exit in that situation! I have heard of instances from friends where the servers will confront you to ask why you've only tipped 10% (all in situations where they honestly didn't know the custom), so I'd expect the average American to be forthright, which is probably quite a shock to us relatively mild mannered Brits. After all, the wages of service staff in the US are frankly dire and they sometimes really do rely on tips to survive.

I don't think that they can bar you (tipping is, after all, not mandatory). But I wouldn't want to go back to somewhere where I'd undertipped, because
1) The service would have been poor anyway if I've undertipped.
2) If they remember you when you go back...