Todmorden Curve

[Sox]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...odmorden_Curve_line_could_be_running_by_2013/

Todmorden Curve could be running by 2013

FASTER trains could be running between Burnley and Manchester as soon as December 2013 after engineers gave their seal of approval to the project.

Network Rail has completed a detailed assessment into whether the vital Todmorden Curve link could be reinstated.

Its engineers say the project, which would cost between £7.5million and £8million, is feasible, despite complications over the exact route. This means the only obstacle now is finding the cash.

Keith Lumley, of Network Rail, said: “It is good news. We are saying it can be done. From an engineering and railway point of view there is nothing to stop it being done.”

The company’s verdict is a major step forward for the project, which council bosses have made their top rail priority in Lancashire.

The 500-metre stretch of track known as the Todmorden Curve, which has not been used since the 1960s, connects the Burnley to Manchester lines and would cut the travel time to 40 minutes. Commuters currently have to change at Hebden Bridge.

A single line has been recommended, although it cannot follow the original path because the curve would be too sharp.

Mr Lumley said the engineers had ‘tinkered’ with the route and put forward an alternative.

The project has now completed the first three of eight stages, and the onus on Burnley and Lancashire council chiefs is now to bid for money and submit a final business case to the government.

If cash can be found by early next year, a detailed engineering stage will begin. The link could then be built, handed back to the rail industry, and begin operating by the end of 2013.

Lancashire County Council’s transport chief, Tim Ashton, said: “Out of seven schemes related to rail in Lancashire, this is our top one. I am fully supportive of it.”

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

After the demise of the Manchester to Accrington direct route (now part ELR), this link would give that part of North Lancashire a faster link to Manchester than the line through Blackburn and Bolton. It would give more emphasis on the Manchester to Todmorden part of the Calder Valley route.

I note that it is stated that the original line path cannot be followed because the curve would be too sharp and that only a single line is envisaged. Have any suggested path proposals been yet put into the public domain?

 

[cle]

Single line is better than nothing. It would probably only need 4tph to use it - 2tph each way I would guess. Manchester - Tod might become quite high frequency!

They could run as circular services (up round Bolton and Blackburn then down again) to avoid clogging Victoria. Clitheroe services could be additional, and maybe run semi-fast (with a view to extending to Hellifield).

 

[Invincibles]

Single line is better than nothing. It would probably only need 4tph to use it - 2tph each way I would guess. Manchester - Tod might become quite high frequency!

They could run as circular services (up round Bolton and Blackburn then down again) to avoid clogging Victoria. Clitheroe services could be additional, and maybe run semi-fast (with a view to extending to Hellifield).

Be interesting to know what the demand for Bolton/Darwen to Burnley would be, because that would then become possible with a circular service.

 

[cle]

It would probably exist, and Accrington too. They're both rubbish for shopping for example, and so people might want to go to Bolton which is better. Not to mention employment prospects.

The circular route would probably be used for lots of different, short journeys rather than long ones (Bolton to Tod would be unlikely for example) - but as such, might take a lot of people out of their cars and off buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What are the views of both the Local Authorities named in this thread under the current economic climate and would Central Government view the case for strategic re-opening of the link with favour in the coming period of time?

 

[bluenoxid]

LCC are very supportive of it and I believe it is their main priority for rail investment.

 

[Nym]

Will be very nice to have aswell, I'm wondering if it will either be an extra tph on the loop with the Clitheroe service being kept, or if it will be incorparated into the current Clitheroe diagram.

It could divert one of the Wigan via Bolton services toward Blackburn and onto Clitheroe, but it would need more 2 tack between Bolton and Blackburn again IIRC

 

[WatcherZero]

Lanashires priorities (and the chance of them happening) could probably be ordered:

1. Todmorden
2. ELR commuter service
3. Burscough Curve
4. Kirkby-Skem Merseyrail extension
5. New heritage rail
6. Skipton

 

[185]

Always makes me giggle the figures quoted for streches of line 500metres long, or for example the Halton Curve points reinstatement. I bet the someone like the Llangollen Railway could put track in for about 5% of these stupid prices quoted

 

[Nym]

Watcher, I get the distinct feeling that the only thing that would need to happen for a commuter service on the ELR, well, maybe two things, possibly three

If a mainline connection to Castleford is wanted, or onward travel into Victoria, would be if they have enough mainline registered stock, I'm not sure of the current situation of mainline reg stock at the ELR, but I don't think theres much.

Other than that

1) Drivers that can sign to Castleford?
2) If the DaFT would alow it
3) Funding

If the ELR joined ATOC as a ToC and had some of their drivers sign the routes into Victoria, or even just to Castleford, or even just into Bury, but all the way into Victoria would be nicer.

ELR as an open access TOC, able to set fares on their own route, and potentially joining the System One Travelcard system, or Metrolink's ticketing system, I can see an hourly or better service to Rawthenstall working.

 

[WatcherZero]

To a couple of those questions, money is the big thing, probably around £20m needed possibly TFGM and LCC throwing some into the pot but would probably need a grant from somewhere to reach the right amount. The next biggest issue is legislation/licensing of the ELR for a passenger service, in particular if higher line speeds were desired. As to vehicles Whitmore was being given a guided tour of the Stourbridge Class 139 last week and told RAIL that we could be seeing them in Manchester very soon. A larger variant of the PPM50 would be what they would use I imagine, something like the PPM175. As to how far it would go im not sure, quite possibly it would start off only on the ELR track, possibly being extended to Victoria later but that would require track changes unless they decided to make the route on the existing connection to Metrolink through the ELR's depot.

 

[Nym]

Or it could be the case that these PPMs (The biggest ones available) could run on Metrolink inferstructure to Victoria...?

PPM to make a Tram/Train?

 

[bluenoxid]

Could be done a lot cheaper by connecting with the existing tram at Bury using a PPM or a train. Looking at other options, I was parked at Junction 2 of the M66 to pick up a phone call where the line crosses towards Castleton. A lot of brownfield area for parking with a simple platform.

 

[WatcherZero]

If theres no infrastructure works this project could be done on the cheap, its if they need to start altering signalling, replacing track or laying new connections the cost will mount up.



[youtube]fuhv6xsfWmc[/youtube]

Little video from before it entered service which I think is quite informative.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could be done a lot cheaper by connecting with the existing tram at Bury using a PPM or a train. Looking at other options, I was parked at Junction 2 of the M66 to pick up a phone call where the line crosses towards Castleton. A lot of brownfield area for parking with a simple platform.

Is that near where the Heap Bridge junction was?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If a mainline connection to Castleford is wanted, or onward travel into Victoria, would be if they have enough mainline registered stock, I'm not sure of the current situation of mainline reg stock at the ELR, but I don't think theres much.

You have got me thinking here...this is one ELR line extension that I have not envisaged....... to Yorkshire.

Mind you, Castleford Tigers are not a bad rugby league side and this route would be very useful for the Salford City Reds fans to use for the away games.

I had to get my rail atlas out and from the Heywood ELR station, take the line to Rochdale then up the Calder Valley line past Sowerby Bridge, through Milner Royd Junction then through Brighouse, Mirfield, Normanton to Castleford.

Your comment about the current situation of mainline reg stock at the ELR is very relevant, considering the length of journey this route will have to take and toilet facilities are going to be absolutely essential!!!!

 

[lancastrian]

Always makes me giggle the figures quoted for streches of line 500metres long, or for example the Halton Curve points reinstatement. I bet the someone like the Llangollen Railway could put track in for about 5% of these stupid prices quoted

Why go as far as the Llangollen railway for thise expertise, it is available at either the East Lancashire Railway or the Keighley & Worth Valley. I feel that the real reason that these two railways would not be asked, is that they would do such a god job at such a cheap price, that is would open up strong questions as to why we are paying so much to do what is basically a simple, cheap job.

 

[bluenoxid]

Is that near where the Heap Bridge junction was?

Wouldn't have a clue. Follow the M66 and just where the Junction 2 slip roads come off, the ELR crosses under the Motorway. To the west of the railway is a site with lots of car parks. Dump it there.

Even running trains on the ELR can be costly. A big issue for the KWVR having trains was having to have signal boxes manned, so if they wanted more than one train on branch, they would need to put signallers in.

Costs are a bit of weird one. I have been informed that NR's project management costs are steep, as well the inbuilt costs over run prevention.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wouldn't have a clue. Follow the M66 and just where the Junction 2 slip roads come off, the ELR crosses under the Motorway. To the west of the railway is a site with lots of car parks. Dump it there.QUOTE]



Yes, this is the area that I thought it was. The ELR lines passes through the Heap Bridge district that was once famous for paper-making (and had a junction with a line running under the main road to a factory), skirts along the perimeter of the Darn Hill housing estate, past the site of the former L and Y station at Broadfield until it reaches Heywood station. From there, the line proceeds to the "Y" junction with the Manchester to Rochdale line just before reaching Castleton station. That "Y" junction area was very busy for many years with a Permanent Way depot on the site.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why go as far as the Llangollen railway for thise expertise, it is available at either the East Lancashire Railway or the Keighley & Worth Valley. I feel that the real reason that these two railways would not be asked, is that they would do such a god job at such a cheap price, that is would open up strong questions as to why we are paying so much to do what is basically a simple, cheap job.

We do a cracking job at track relaying Id be happy to do it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is one point that has not, to the best of my knowledge, been raised concerning the arrival of this proposed service into Manchester Victoria. The only two east-facing bays( platforms 1 and 2) are currently in use by Calder Valley line services to Leeds and Selby, plus stopping services to Stalybridge. Would any such services from East Lancashire to Manchester, via the Todmorden Chord, be expected to terminate in these bay platforms? Would this make for any operational difficulties?.

Once the Ordsal Chord is built, through running to Manchester Oxford Road station, via Manchester Victoria and Deansgate, could terminate at the bay platform section of that station. I know that only platform 5 is in use, but would it be possible to reinstate bay platform 6? It would give three different parts of Manchester city-centre access to this proposed rail route.

No-one has considered how TRANSDEV would view the competition to their Lancashire Witch X43 and X44 coach/bus services that they run with quite good quality seating and a competitive pricing structure. Much of their route from the Rawtenstall area southwards is via the motorway network as far as Prestwich. Would they then offer an express version of these services to Manchester calling at Burnley and certain main stops only as competition to any proposed new rail service.

I am not playing Devils Advocate here. All I am doing is bringing a matter into the discussion that will be actually be faced should the new rail service start.

 

[WatcherZero]

They are planning a second Island Metrolink platform at Victoria which could serve as bays or through platforms, next to the existing platforms under the the section of shed with no roof.

Where these support columns are:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thank you for your excellant photograph. It made the proposed new Metrolink island position clear to me. Incidentally, would there ever be a use for terminal Metrolink platforms at Manchester Victoria for operational purpose situated where the old fish dock was, outside the wall of the station facing Corporation Street.

Did you think that there are any merits in reinstating Platform 6 bay at Manchester Oxford Road for ANY services, once the Ordsall Chord is fully operational?

 

[Lampshade]

Did you think that there are any merits in reinstating Platform 6 bay at Manchester Oxford Road for ANY services, once the Ordsall Chord is fully operational?

I've heard about this one... where is/was it?

 

[Nym]

Next to platform 5.....

Currently contains OHLE supports, and once the Ordstall Cord is complete I dont' think platform 5 will see much use either it takes up paths having the services terminate there, I've seen talk of either pushing through the CLC stoppers to the airport, or terminating them at Piccadilly where when theres 15/16 there'll be more space, oh I do hope for some centre road sidings to the south of on the slows to terminate from the west at picc.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

No-one has considered how TRANSDEV would view the competition to their Lancashire Witch X43 and X44 coach/bus services that they run with quite good quality seating and a competitive pricing structure. Much of their route from the Rawtenstall area southwards is via the motorway network as far as Prestwich. Would they then offer an express version of these services to Manchester calling at Burnley and certain main stops only as competition to any proposed new rail service.

I'm sure they wouldn't be joining in the party! But I think there are two different markets here. Currently the X43 just ins't quick enough in rush hour for significant volumes of commuters from Burnley - with the traffic on the M66 and through Prestwich it's the best part of 90 minutes. I'm sure some people do commute on it, but from my expierence, most rush hour commuters are from no further than the Rawtenstall. I'm not sure of the viability on an Express version from Burnley - I believe a bus service has to have a minimum amount of stops, or maximum distance between stops in order to qualify for a fuel duty rebate? That certainly used to be the case anyway, which is why you would often find express bus services taking a detour through a little used village!

The rail link would be very attractive for those wanting to live in East Lancashire and work in Manchester, perhaps attracted by the cheap housing, but they won't appear overnight. So the service may not appear too popular initially. The X43 will continue to attact passengers from Rawtenstall, and probably from Nelson, so I would think it would continue virtually unchanged. From Burnley there will probably a split of passengers, commuters and those with time concerns taking the train, and leisure passengers taking the slower, but cheaper bus.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The X43 will continue to attact passengers from Rawtenstall, and probably from Nelson, so I would think it would continue virtually unchanged. From Burnley there will probably a split of passengers, commuters and those with time concerns taking the train, and leisure passengers taking the slower, but cheaper bus.

I have just been given a copy of the current X43/X44 "Lancashire Witch" bus timetable (LCC leaflet no. 62,...from 11 April 2010). I was amazed at the frequency of the service from Nelson to Manchester in the Monday to Friday rush hour period as services leave Nelson at 0556, 0614, 0624, 0634, 0644, 0654, 0704, 0712 and 0717 for journeys to Manchester. All these journeys serve Burnley bus station and Rawtenstall (Bank Street).

The train will have to compete against this level of service.

Before you ask, NO, I am NOT a consultant employed by TRANSDEV. I just want the forum to be aware of the competition that the train would face. TRANSDEV offer single and day return fares from Colne, Burnley and Rawtenstall to Manchester for the occasional traveller and also 12 journey Gold and Silver tickets, plus a 7-day ticket. They seem a very co-ordinated bus company with services run in other areas of the country. I believe that they are NOT a British company in ownership terms and on checking their details, I have found out the following:-

Veolia Transport and TRANSDEV amalgamated on 7th March 2011 and have announced the formation of VEOLIA TRANSDEV. The group operates in 28 countries with a total workforce of 119,000 employees.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

The service level is indeed impressive, but the rush hour times are not. The timetable books 76 minutes from Burnley to Deansgate, but also has 20 mintues from Deansgate to Chorlton Street, which I think is a railway style fudge. The real timing to get to central Manchester is in the 80-90 minute mark. This isn't a commutable journey. There aren't legions of bus commuters from Burnley to Manchester. Most people from Burnley use the service for leisure, or to catch trains from Picadilly as opposed to going via Preston. There are however, a lot of commuters from Rawtenstall and the villages on the way to Rawtenstall.

The rail service would certainly attract commuters, ideally if it was twice an hour in the rush hour. There's likely to be a bit of demand from those that currently drive, but it probably wouldn't become particularly popular for a few years, when residents start taking up better paid jobs in Manchester, and some Mancunians relocating for cheaper housing.

As an illustration of my point, check out the timetable for the X40/X41 which is Blackburn-Accrington-Manchester. Virtually no rush hour service at all from Blackburn, because they can't compete with the train for commuters, despite it taking a similar amount of time as from Burnley. They can only compete off-peak for lesuire travellers. Accrington is also a strong market for the train if a regular direct service could be established, 50 minutes on the train is much more attactive than 70 minutes on the bus.

However I do think that thought needs to be given for aggressively marketing fares for off-peak travel. Something like two return for £15 would probably get people using the train instead of the bus. Also, a park and ride would be essential to get commuters from Nelson/Colne/Padiham. Rose Grove might be a possibility if there was land available.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However I do think that thought needs to be given for aggressively marketing fares for off-peak travel. Something like two return for £15 would probably get people using the train instead of the bus. Also, a park and ride would be essential to get commuters from Nelson/Colne/Padiham. Rose Grove might be a possibility if there was land available.

I thank you for your considered opinion. The point that you make about park and ride faciliies is very relevent. Lostock Parkway has often been cited as a very good example of what a good sized park and ride can do. Is there land facilities available to enable large sized versions of these to be built near to the proposed stations?.

I think that TRANSDEV were very aware that they faced commuter competition on the Blackburn to Manchester route from the Clitheroe-Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester rail service and from the the 225 Clitheroe - Blackburn - Bolton bus service for short journey passengers. However, as they faced no such rail competition on the Colne-Burnley-Rawtenstall-Manchester route, they have obviously set up their service accordingly with regard to operational and commercial nessessities in mind.

I must confess that their timetable for the X43/X44 Lancashire Witch is very impressive in the quality of paper and printing, with timetables, route maps, ticket and price availability and general information. They must spend quite an amount of money on the production of these.

In my younger days, in the early 1960's, I commuted from Manchester Victoria to Accrington on the line currently part-used by the East Lancashire railway, so I am very much aware of the time advantage that rail offers over bus travel.

 

[185]

Witch Way's fares are extortionate. Rail could make some serious money out of their market.

I've got that Scissor Sistors song in my head now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA