Tokyo metro and regional trains, and signal problems

[Louis Lemieux]

I recently visited Japan for a 6th time. I spent most of my time in a SW suburb of Tokyo called Tamagawa. As you may know the Tokyo rail network is extremely complex with numerous operators, and many shared tracks, stations, etc; Basically one is usually required to pay very close attention to the announcements. I also used the Shinkansen, which as every time I have used it (possibly a dozen trips in total) has always been running to the minute. In the two weeks of my recent visit, one train was delayed, on the very famously busy Yamanote (circle) line, apparently because of a person on the tracks.
My contention is that the Japanese people have never heard of a signal problem (and Montreal and Toronto people neither, by the way. I am a Canadian Brit living in London since 1990; the term simply does not exist in Canada.)
Can an expert please explain this to me??? (I have lost count of the number of times I asked BBC London to investigate this.)

 

[alxndr]

Are you asking why they don't seem to have signal failures and we do, or what a signal failure is?

 

[Louis Lemieux]

Are you asking why they don't seem to have signal failures and we do, or what a signal failure is?

I suppose both! Actually, most importantly why they seem so common in London compared to other systems (I travel a lot to big cities all over the world and always try to use public transport.) I admit that there could be effects of transparency (on theppart of TfL) and even language.

 

[30907]

I suppose both! Actually, most importantly why they seem so common in London compared to other systems (I travel a lot to big cities all over the world and always try to use public transport.) I admit that there could be effects of transparency (on theppart of TfL) and even language.

A signal failure is rarely a problem with the signal itself. Typically it's when the safety systems cannot prove that the line ahead is clear and allow the signal to show a proceed indication (yellow or green in UK usage), and until it is fixed trains are either stopped or delayed.
I can't speak for Japan, but signalling failures are common on mainland Europe, though there are very few parts of the system that are as congested as London railways (or, in the case of the London Underground, as complicated).

 

[WideRanger]

There definitely are signal failures - but these will often be just described as 'technical problems'. That phrase also covers cases where OHL is affected by high winds (which happens a lot in the autumn), or where there is a failure in one of the (very numerous) level crossings.

It's a bit of a myth that Japanese trains aren't late. Largely true on the Shinkansen, but that's because it is a very closed system with quite high catch-up potential from delay (For example, on Shinkansen with a Line speed of 300 kmh, they will often drive at 270kmh unless they need to catch up).

But on urban lines, delay is very common - you just might not notice: when everything is running to schedule the displays on most routes will display the timetabled departure time for the train. When the line starts building delays (in my experience pretty much every morning rush hour) the displays will switch to 'Next train in 2 mins' style display, and the trains are then no longer displayed as 'delayed'. On most lines through the centre of Tokyo, this change happens once the typical line delay reaches 10 minutes.

The famous 'delay proof slips' are normally given out on urban lines when the whole line is stopped for a while, not just because each individual train is delayed.

 

[Three-Nine]

I've been lucky enough to visit Japan several times and have an interest in the country and therefore keep eye on Japanese news. Signal problems do occur, as do various other "typical" causes of train delays; its not unusual to see these mentioned on the videoscreens on the Yamanote line trains (my pesonal favourite being a delay listed for another route simply as "Bear"...!). Whilst I agree that the Japanese system is in general very efficient, they are not immune and theres a degree of "confirmation bias" - with a few rare exceptions issues on Japanese trains aren't normally reported in Western news sources.

Among issues that will be familiar to travellers from other rail using countries in recent years I've seen Japanese news reports for fallen trees, a corroded power line support that fell over, a fire on a diesel train, numerous level crossing incidents (Japan obviously having a high number of level crossings for incidents to occur at) and power failures causing even the mighty shinkansen to get trapped at a station. This is leaving aside the various natural causes of a significant nature such as earthquakes and typhoons - just last week apparently there was trouble caused to rail electrical systems by seawater blown in a by a recent typhoon (whats the Japanese for "Dawlish avoiding line"...? ).

Having said all that, in general, yes the Japanese rail network is very good and the average tourist traveller is probably going to be unlucky to experience any significant issues.

 

[Louis Lemieux]

Thank

A signal failure is rarely a problem with the signal itself. Typically it's when the safety systems cannot prove that the line ahead is clear and allow the signal to show a proceed indication (yellow or green in UK usage), and until it is fixed trains are either stopped or delayed.
I can't speak for Japan, but signalling failures are common on mainland Europe, though there are very few parts of the system that are as congested as London railways (or, in the case of the London Underground, as complicated).

Thank you. I highly recommend visiting Japan: THE train country.

 

[Louis Lemieux]

I've been lucky enough to visit Japan several times and have an interest in the country and therefore keep eye on Japanese news. Signal problems do occur, as do various other "typical" causes of train delays; its not unusual to see these mentioned on the videoscreens on the Yamanote line trains (my pesonal favourite being a delay listed for another route simply as "Bear"...!). Whilst I agree that the Japanese system is in general very efficient, they are not immune and theres a degree of "confirmation bias" - with a few rare exceptions issues on Japanese trains aren't normally reported in Western news sources.

Among issues that will be familiar to travellers from other rail using countries in recent years I've seen Japanese news reports for fallen trees, a corroded power line support that fell over, a fire on a diesel train, numerous level crossing incidents (Japan obviously having a high numer of level crossings for incidents to occur at) and power failures causing even the mighty shinkansen to get trapped at a station. This is leaving aside the various natural causes of a significant nature such as earthquakes and typhoons - just last week apparently there was trouble caused to rail electrical systems by seawater blown in a by a recent typhoon (whats the Japanese for "Dawlish avoiding line"...? ).

Having said all that, in general, yes the Japanese rail network is very good and the average tourist traveller is probably going to be unlucky to experience any significant issues.

Very interesting , thank you.
Are there global league tables, or even standardised performance data collection systems?

 

[Louis Lemieux]

A signal failure is rarely a problem with the signal itself. Typically it's when the safety systems cannot prove that the line ahead is clear and allow the signal to show a proceed indication (yellow or green in UK usage), and until it is fixed trains are either stopped or delayed.
I can't speak for Japan, but signalling failures are common on mainland Europe, though there are very few parts of the system that are as congested as London railways (or, in the case of the London Underground, as complicated).

Thanks.

 

[Louis Lemieux]

There definitely are signal failures - but these will often be just described as 'technical problems'. That phrase also covers cases where OHL is affected by high winds (which happens a lot in the autumn), or where there is a failure in one of the (very numerous) level crossings.

It's a bit of a myth that Japanese trains aren't late. Largely true on the Shinkansen, but that's because it is a very closed system with quite high catch-up potential from delay (For example, on Shinkansen with a Line speed of 300 kmh, they will often drive at 270kmh unless they need to catch up).

But on urban lines, delay is very common - you just might not notice: when everything is running to schedule the displays on most routes will display the timetabled departure time for the train. When the line starts building delays (in my experience pretty much every morning rush hour) the displays will switch to 'Next train in 2 mins' style display, and the trains are then no longer displayed as 'delayed'. On most lines through the centre of Tokyo, this change happens once the typical line delay reaches 10 minutes.

The famous 'delay proof slips' are normally given out on urban lines when the whole line is stopped for a while, not just because each individual train is delayed.

Thank you. In my experience, specially on my last trip, Google map routes seem to reflect the reality very closely. I encountered one significant delay, which was on the Yamanote line, posted as due to a person on the track.
As I asked in another response, I wonder if there are global league tables, or even standardised performance data collection systems.

 

[WideRanger]

Thank you. In my experience, specially on my last trip, Google map routes seem to reflect the reality very closely. I encountered one significant delay, which was on the Yamanote line, posted as due to a person on the track.
As I asked in another response, I wonder if there are global league tables, or even standardised performance data collection systems.

My point is that you probably don't realise that there are delays on the Yamanote Line unless there is a total suspension, because the trains run at a two minute frequency most of the day and they all go to the same place. They certainly won't show up on Google Maps, because that only includes information on the high frequency routes where the trains actually aren't travelling.

 

[Louis Lemieux]

My point is that you probably don't realise that there are delays on the Yamanote Line unless there is a total suspension, because the trains run at a two minute frequency most of the day and they all go to the same place. They certainly won't show up on Google Maps, because that only includes information on the high frequency routes where the trains actually aren't travelling.

I see: one train or another shows up, thanks. You mean that the adjusted (delayed) times will not appear on Google Maps.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you. In my experience, specially on my last trip, Google map routes seem to reflect the reality very closely. I encountered one significant delay, which was on the Yamanote line, posted as due to a person on the track.
As I asked in another response, I wonder if there are global league tables, or even standardised performance data collection systems.

There is no global consitency on measuring train delays. It’s not even remotely consistent in Europe.

Here in the U.K. every train that is late is counted as late, regardless of cause. In many other countries, delays caused by events outside the railways control are not counted (e.g. severe weather, natural disaster, suicides, trespass). This is why some systems can boast of 99% punctuality - it depends what you count.

 

[Re 4/4]

When I used to live in Switzerland, we never had "signal failures" but we did regularly have Stellwerkstoerungen in the Zurich area - which translates as "signal box disruption" and describes the same phenomenon.

I've heard it said that in Switzerland, a train counts as delayed for reporting purposes if it's 5 minutes behind schedule, and despite France having a more lenient standard, they still have a higher proportion of trains delayed overall.

 

[dutchflyer]

@ delay slips Japan:
Just an aside-but in some EUR countries these are also available to the commuters. Esp. In BElgium-but since a few yrs only after genuine 20 or 30 mins late arrivals-with NMBS now having some direct online notices to govmt. institutions etc. Workers do not need to make up this lost time with it-and still get fully paid. Due to their centralized and socialist nature, probably more or less same-same in France.
And yes, even though its now quite some time I've been to JPN, can confirm this all. Enormous collection of big and tiny private railways too, but on single track lines (f.e. north island-Hokkaido) delays are not uncommon on the tiny diesel sets.

 

[gsnedders]

My point is that you probably don't realise that there are delays on the Yamanote Line unless there is a total suspension, because the trains run at a two minute frequency most of the day and they all go to the same place. They certainly won't show up on Google Maps, because that only includes information on the high frequency routes where the trains actually aren't travelling.

The other thing to realise is many of the more intensively operated lines around Tokyo have one track per route (because there's a sufficient number of trains to justify that), which means even if one route does have a failure other lines in the area can often continue running normally.

 

[Three-Nine]

Just to prove that yes, it really does happen (and during the New Year, which is one of the big holidays in Japan):

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20181230/p2g/00m/0na/046000c#cxrecs_s