Told off by an inspector for using a combination of tickets

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by STEVIEBOY1, 31 May 2015.

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  1. STEVIEBOY1

    STEVIEBOY1 Established Member

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    Is travelling with split tickets still permitted? A friend & I were travelling some time ago doing this and got told off severely by the ticket inspector as we did not have a through ticket to our main destination. Another time when I did this on a local train, the ticket office would not sell me two tickets, I was told to get off at the intermediate station and buy an onward ticket from there?
     
  2. SickyNicky

    SickyNicky Verified Rep

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    Absolutely, yes. As long as your trains stop at the stations where you change from one ticket to the next.

    I would be surprised if any member of staff nowadays is not aware of the validity of split tickets. TrainSplit has been selling them for a while now and has yet to receive a single complaint about guards not accepting them.

    As for ticket offices, they are obliged to sell you the tickets you ask for, even if they are split tickets. If they will not, we would love to hear about it here, and I'm sure would be encouraging you to make a complaint.
     
  3. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    When you say 'on a local train' do you mean you were on board the train and buying from the guard (in which case I take it you meant 'ticket officer), or was it at the ticket office and you were buying tickets for a local train?
     
  4. STEVIEBOY1

    STEVIEBOY1 Established Member

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    Both these incidents I refer to were several years ago and as they caused problems, I have been put off doing split tickets. Sounds like things have changed a bit now. Although I did hear the train firms were trying to stop this practice.
     
  5. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    They aren't fans of split ticketing, but there's nothing they can do to stop it other than a wholesale rewrite of the Conditions of Carriage.
     
  6. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Not entirely true, there are times that sales can be refused, however, split ticketing should not be a reason to refuse sale.
     
  7. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    I use split tickets extensively and have never had a problem. I do generally use simple splits rather than 'loopholes'. Just make sure the train calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another.

    Some train companies want to stop split ticketing (generally the longer distance inter-city TOC's) but others quite like it as it gives them a greater share of revenue than they would otherwise get.
     
  8. W-on-Sea

    W-on-Sea Established Member

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    I've had no problems buying split tickets at stations (FGW ones, usually), and was even "congratulated" by a guard on a Cross Country train for "having got a good deal" by, well, not paying the inflated through prices his company charge....
     
  9. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    It's always very satisfying to be congratulated by a guard over a choice of tickets.

    My best split was making a journey from Paddington in the evening peak, reducing the cost from over £200 to less than £50. The guard had a good look at the tickets, marked them and gave me a well done.:D
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This is permitted by the NRCoC, and you may be interested to learn that members of this forum have put together a RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, which includes a section dedicated to this subject; see Split ticketing

    If a Customer requests a combination of fares which the seller can sell (ie, all fares which are "permanent" and "basic") then the seller is obliged to sell them. The only reason they could refuse is if the fares are not valid for the journey.

    TSA: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

    NewsRail Express extract:
    (The Conditions have been re-numbered since; it's now Condition 19 not 17).
    I hope you wrote to the relevant company/companies?

    If they did not adequately resolve the matter to your satisfaction your next port of call is Transport Focus and you could also refer the matter to the DfT (if the Company refuses to adhere to its franchise obligations) and the ORR (if you believe the Company is refusing to comply with consumer law and this needs to be investigated).
     
  11. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I think there is a greater awareness of split ticketing these days. Although it was a former BR member of staff at my local ticket office who introduced me to the concept as he saw the journey I was making would be cheaper with 2 tickets. I find on train staff are not likely to question it now, where as before you could see it was something they were not used to, they might say "oh are you staying on after [name of station], but never refused to accept the ticket.

    Under what circumstances can a ticket office refuse to sell a ticket?

    I really do hope that the TOCs do not try to ban split ticketing, like in Ireland. I would like to think that this would be very difficult (hopefully impossible) for them to do. I would hate a situation whereby you were having to get off the train at every station you wanted to change from one ticket to another (and possibly have to exit the station and walk back in). Someone tell me this would be be very hard for them to do... I cannot see any valid reason for them banning it, other then the fact they are not wanting passengers to pay less.

    "Not entirely true, there are times that sales can be refused, however, split ticketing should not be a reason to refuse sale."

    "However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so."

    Would it be fair to say that now a days even the most small of ticket offices would have the facilities to issue any ticket asked for, and therefore could do a split ticket no problem? I say this because all ticket offices now are computerised surely using the one central system containing all rail fares? (its years since I've seen a fares manual being used behind a booking office window) :)
     
    Last edited: 31 May 2015
  12. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    I'm always happy to sell split tickets and on the odd occasion if somebody is in need of help I'm happy to go through and work out a cheaper combination for them than a through ticket. There are however a number of people who are being sold split tickets by guards and aren't also being told that they must travel on a train that stops at that station. Splitting at New Mills Central seems to be a favourite which isn't valid on my trains. Likewise a lot of Seniors and Disabled pass holders are quite sneaky at buying a ticket from the boundary of their pass to their destination station, including on a route not served by my services. None of which are valid as the service doesn't stop at places like Newton le Willows, Hough Green or Glazebrook!
     
  13. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Aren't passes treated similar to season tickets - in that 19 (c) doesn't require the train to stop at the split point?
     
  14. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    I have refused to sell split tickets on occasion in the past - when the person requesting it has walked past an open booking office, or the validity of a ticket they are holding has expired and they have made no effort to find me before that point, or the train does not call at the splitting station.

    If somebody wishes to use split tickets that's fine, but by doing so they may be placing extra restrictions and obligations on themselves, and while I am normally pretty easygoing, I'm afraid I hold them to these restrictions and obligations to the letter.
     
  15. Ianigsy

    Ianigsy Member

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    Several years ago my parents saw a Merseytravel senior pass holder caught out in similar circumstances one Sunday morning- having bought a ticket from the booking office at Newton-le-Willows to Manchester, the traveller then found that his intended train was cancelled (presumably when it was due to leave Liverpool) with at least 90 minutes until the next departure. Being advised that the booking office that the fastest way to Manchester was to go into Liverpool and TPE, he was subsequently charged full fare for Liverpool to Manchester. This was before TPE started calling at Liverpool South Parkway and presumably there was no ATW service on the route that morning...
     
  16. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    As long as they aren't PTE issued I believe so.
     
  17. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    Only when they're not issued by a PTE; so the train needn't stop if splitting with a TfL Freedom Pass, but it needs to if the pass held is a TfGM ENCTS.
     
  18. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    Local authority passes are specifically excluded from that. So that covers Merseyrail and TfGM amongst some others. I don't as a principle charge anybody doing that but I do give advice that they shouldn't be doing it and if they want to do it they must travel on the Northern service.
     
  19. cookie365

    cookie365 Member

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    Why is section 19 so complicated?

    Why would it be so terrible if you had 2 single journey tickets, or two season tickets, and the train went straight through? And what's so bad about local authority season tickets?
     
  20. Richard1960

    Richard1960 Member

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    I am using split ticketing from Norwich to Grantham and onwards to Skegness in july i saved around £11 as the through fare was about £69 return and by spilt ticketing advace tickets to Grantham and onwards to Skegness worked out at £58 return.

    You cannot get an advance ticket through to Skegness but you can from Norwich to Grantham.

    My ticket on the first train Norwich to Grantham was £7 on the first train out.:D
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Nothing's bad. Indeed, by some readings[1] of condition 19 (and a sign in the window at Chorley booking office years ago), this is an *advantage*, as a regular season can be combined with a PTE pass to give an equivalent of an outboundary Travelcard.

    [1] ISTR that one of the PTEs has a reading of their T&Cs that explicitly prohibits this?
     
  22. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yes, West Yorkshire passes or whatever they're called have a clause in the T&C stating they aren't valid unless the train calls at the last station in the zone.
     
  23. Harpers Tate

    Harpers Tate Member

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    In that context then
    If I have a TFGM Wayfarer (which is nominally valid to/from Grindleford) and another ticket which is valid between Grindleford and elsewhere further east - do I have to use a train that calls at Grindleford?
     
  24. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    If neither ticket is valid for 7 days or longer then yes. Alternatively, if the other ticket was zonal too then the train does not need to call.
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
  25. Harpers Tate

    Harpers Tate Member

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    Thx. (Wayfarer = one day. Assume the other is a single or day rtn; so yes; stopper required).
     
  26. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    If you have two single journey tickets, or two season tickets, you are in effect paying for two journeys and taking advantage of the pricing structure that these two journeys are cheaper (as nobody asks for split tickets when the through journey is more expensive). If the train does not stop at the splitting station then you have no way to start or complete either journey without doubling back, which is not allowed in most cases.

    If you have a season/zonal ticket, then view the relevant part of Condition 19 as an easement.

    That's my interpretation of it, anyway. Doubtless lots of posters will be along soon to give lots of examples of when/why I am wrong...
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
  27. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but your post reminds me of a question that I can't remember if there was an answer to...

    If there are four stations A-B-C-D, can I combine an A-C and B-D ticket if the train stops at both B and C, in the same way as an A-B and B-D or A-C and C-D? I'm thinking not, but want to be sure as it would be possible to make both journeys for which I have tickets.
     
  28. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    I don't see why not (if I understand you correctly!). If you have a ticket from Swindon to Reading and one from Didcot to London, then the train would not need to stop at Didcot as your Swi-Rdg will cover you on the first section, and your Did-Pad would cover you from Reading to London as you could join a train at Reading with that ticket.
     
  29. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Now that you put it in actual station terms, it's obvious that it would be allowed. The only problem would be if both of them were advances and a guard took a particularly strict view of the rules.
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    At a station common to both tickets (unless one, and only one, is a regular point to point season ticket) yes. Not necessarily Grindleford :)

    (There's also the bit about zonal tickets which I don't fully understand - I've always taken the view that part was mainly intended to refer to TfL boundary zone tickets and the relevant Travelcard, but it may also encompass others such as two overlapping Ranger/Rover tickets. If both tickets are "zonal tickets", whatever that means, the train also need not stop).
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
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