TOO YOUNG to be a Driver?

[Economist]

The train driving can be a good way of financing the training for the flying. That said, the PPL holders I know who are drivers generally seem to enjoy the job, in most cases to the extent that they've decided that they wanted to stay on the trains for their entire career.

However, let's say the OP got in with one of the better London TOCs, one of which was recruiting very recently for trainee train drivers, and keep living expenses at around £1200/month.
During training it should be possible to save £800 every four weeks (on about £32k gross PA), over a year that's £10400. Add another 26 weeks to that and we're looking at £15600 cumulative.
Once qualified, £2000 saved every four weeks at aforementioned TOC should be possible on the basic salary (assuming a gross of £63k PA). Multiply by 39 (13 pay periods per year for three years) and that's £78000. Add the £15k and we've got to £93k. Make it five years in the job and if the OP kept living costs down that's £100k, before we start thinking about overtime (I don't do any myself but it's there for those who want it). Enough for modular flying training and a type rating at the end, possibly another year needed for a mentored integrated course.

That said, we've seen high financially volatile the aviation industry is and unless you're going with one of IAG, AF/KLM, LH group, EZY or RYR, I'd think twice. I personally know someone who did an MPL with Flybe, would have cost his parents £90k-ish and no he's got no job, in an industry that's not recruiting, with a type rating that's a bit limited compared to Airbus or Boeing and with well north of £100k of debt if you factor in the interest.
Personally, if you can keep the licence clean on the trains, I'd stay on the trains unless an airline is paying for your training. An FI rating, or the cash at hand to complete one plus living expenses might be handy just in case one has incidents.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

I was 21 when I got a trainee driver job, am now almost 30 about to change TOCs for the first time. In my intake all of us were sub 30, but I was still the youngest at 21

 

[Ludus]

I was 21 when I got a trainee driver job, am now almost 30 about to change TOCs for the first time. In my intake all of us were sub 30, but I was still the youngest at 21

Any tips? What did you do prior to driving etc. How did you convince them to give you the job and what kind of preparation did you do?

 

[cossie4i]

Arrvia Trains Wales held / hold the record for youngest Mainline driver, he passed out on his 21st birthday.
...

One of my previous Driver Managers qualified before his 21st birthday and had to wait until his 21st birthday to drive on his own.
I would of as well but had a bereavement the evening before my exam and failed.
Was placed on another course and passed at 21 and 3 months.

 

[Red1980]

There's hundreds of young drivers on the network and plenty more in training. And with all the apprenticeship schemes now in place related to driving it'll only increase.

If you perform within the recruitment process you'll get the job. There's no conspiracies involved I assure you.

 

[whoosh]

There's a driver at my TOC who was a trainee at 20 and passed out when aged 21. Lots of other drivers in their twenties too.

 

[driver9000]

Any tips? What did you do prior to driving etc. How did you convince them to give you the job and what kind of preparation did you do?

I came from the buses. I used the experience gained in that job to answer the application form and to give examples of working alone, following rules and procedures etc.

 

[craigybagel]

if you have what they want you will have a good a shot as anyone older.

I think this is the most important comment on this thread, and indeed most of the threads about driver recruitment in general. They're not after people of a particular age, or any other multitude of defining characteristics. They just want someone who can show that they have the right skills for the job. That usually means being able to demonstrate an ability to

*Work Alone
*Concentrate for long periods of time
*Working in a responsible role
*Coping with shift work, including nights

and with at least some of the passenger TOCs now they're often also looking for
*Customer Service Experience

Now that's quite a lot of requirements, and the simple fact is there aren't all that many people who can tick all of those boxes before they reach their 30s or 40s. Some can, and those are the ones fortunate enough to go driving in their 20s. There's no conspiracy against young drivers, it's just that in a role that always has hundreds or even thousands of applicants for every one position, older applicants are more likely to have all the boxes ticked that the recruitment team are looking for.

 

[Economist]

My advice to the OP would be to get themselves down to the local gliding club and get a trial lesson. Once you become a member, you get involved in various tasks such as launching, retrieving, log-keeping etc. in addition to the flying that will be very beneficial for the railway application.

The working alone bit can be ticked off by the 2-hour flight you have to complete for the BGA Bronze Badge.
Pretty much all of the flying has situational awareness/responsibility involved.
Since, as a member, you'll be dealing with trial lesson customers etc. the customer service bit will also be ticked off.
The flying helped me to get through the MMI phase of the driver assessments, without it, I doubt I'd be driving trains for a living.

As has already been stated, quite a few trainees are internal applicants, so the OP might want to apply for other roles as well. These can help tick off the shift work requirements etc.

 

[Mintona]

I was a trainee at 21 and qualified at 22. I’m 30 now and I still wouldn’t change it for the world.

 

[387star]

I think a young person would find driving very boring

The job is boring even to a railway enthusiast and deceptively easy once past the initial training which is anything but!

A previous poster rightly questioned why there are not more schemes to train up on other skills. The only good thing is there is plenty of time off to potentially learn other skills but the shift patterns make lessons in any subject tricky with no set day off each week and fatigue creeping in.

 

[43066]

that depends.

I think flight school/gliding is a very good example of responsibility/safety critical.
if you joined the air cadets at 14 or so,then chances are you already have a good enough grounding for TOC and further training.

I did gliding many,many years ago with a family friend.
the words "you have control" are bloody terrifying the first time you hear them!..even with an instructor in the back of the plane you know any serious cock up on the controls is going to land you in a lot of bother!

I remember being very cautious indeed when attempting any sort of manoeuvres.

That’s a fair point.

Flying/gliding etc are most definitely good examples of “safety critical” work.

That said I’m not sure how much opportunity there actually is to do flying in the ATC - when I was at school (admittedly a few years ago now!) it was very much along the lines of the Boy Scouts with the possibility of some flying months or years after joining.

 

[387star]

That’s a fair point.

Flying/gliding etc are most definitely good examples of “safety critical” work.

That said I’m not sure how much opportunity there actually is to do flying in the ATC - when I was at school (admittedly a few years ago now!) it was very much along the lines of the Boy Scouts with the possibility of some flying months or years after joining.

I know a driver who flies at weekends and turned down a job with EasyJet as they worked out they would be financially better off as a Train Driver!

I think it is appalling some airlines make people pay out of their own pockets for interviews etc.

 

[387star]

I was a trainee at 21 and qualified at 22. I’m 30 now and I still wouldn’t change it for the world.

I joined the railways at 22
When I was 21 I turned down an assessment centre invite for FGW Reading. I applied never expecting to get an invite. Almost every TOC I applied for I passed the sift but I did not know this then so it was a big decision. I was very worried about the old mechanical test but the main reason was perceived lack of life experience (I had only a retail job then) and lack of confidence. I did not find talking easy back then which used to knock me back. In the end I qualified at 27 (started at 26) and it was certainly the right time. My mum unexpectedly passed away shortly after I started as a trainee but thankfully she was still alive when I drove my first train.

 

[43066]

I personally know someone who did an MPL with Flybe, would have cost his parents £90k-ish and no he's got no job, in an industry that's not recruiting, with a type rating that's a bit limited compared to Airbus or Boeing and with well north of £100k of debt if you factor in the interest.

No job and quite possibly no license at all. I understand the MPL only “unfreezes” into an ATPL after 1500 hours on type and is also tied to a particular aircraft type (the Q400 in Flybe’s case). Up until that point you don’t have so much as a PPL.

A terrible situation to find yourself in after parents have remortgaged their property etc.

 

[387star]

No job and quite possibly no license at all. I understand the MPL only “unfreezes” into an ATPL after 1500 hours on type and is also tied to a particular aircraft type (the Q400 in Flybe’s case). Up until that point you don’t have so much as a PPL.

A terrible situation to find yourself in after parents have remortgaged their property etc.

We have a lot to be thankful for in this industry

 

[Ludus]

My advice to the OP would be to get themselves down to the local gliding club and get a trial lesson. Once you become a member, you get involved in various tasks such as launching, retrieving, log-keeping etc. in addition to the flying that will be very beneficial for the railway application.

The working alone bit can be ticked off by the 2-hour flight you have to complete for the BGA Bronze Badge.
Pretty much all of the flying has situational awareness/responsibility involved.
Since, as a member, you'll be dealing with trial lesson customers etc. the customer service bit will also be ticked off.
The flying helped me to get through the MMI phase of the driver assessments, without it, I doubt I'd be driving trains for a living.

As has already been stated, quite a few trainees are internal applicants, so the OP might want to apply for other roles as well. These can help tick off the shift work requirements etc.

Already a gliding club member and fly as much as I can. I'll start getting more and more involved and see if I can get involved with trial lessons and dealing with winch launching etc.
The job thing is a difficult thing for me though, I'm currently in a very good position at one of the biggest companies in the UK, which fortunately means I earn a good amount money for someone my age and I also get to choose as and when I work in my current position... I'd be very reluctant to give this job up for another job on the railway when I've seen plenty of contradictory information on this forum where some people say it helps to gain a drivers job and plenty of people say it really makes no difference at all. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

No job and quite possibly no license at all. I understand the MPL only “unfreezes” into an ATPL after 1500 hours on type and is also tied to a particular aircraft type (the Q400 in Flybe’s case). Up until that point you don’t have so much as a PPL.

A terrible situation to find yourself in after parents have remortgaged their property etc.

I was looking at applying for Flybe, but given its economic situation at the time I decided against it. My biggest fear with them would them going bankrupt and being thrown on the street with nothing. Looks like my nightmare was realised not too long after, I personally know a couple of cadets on their course that are now left with nothing, I also know some pilots who have also been thrown onto the streets with nothing but a Q400 type rating. Aviation is harsh and it's only getting worse, so as much as it pains me to look at another career i've just seen too many people fall victim to the industry.

 

[Tom Quinne]

One of my previous Driver Managers qualified before his 21st birthday and had to wait until his 21st birthday to drive on his own.
I would of as well but had a bereavement the evening before my exam and failed.
Was placed on another course and passed at 21 and 3 months.

The DM you mention may well be the chap I’m talking about, I think he was Shrewsbury based back then around 2000?

 

[Horizon22]

To some extent it depends on the TOC. Some have a reasonable churn of drivers, so its much easier for younger people to get into the industry. I know a few drivers under 30 although none progressed directly to driver; they were station staff or guards beforehand.

 

[43066]

The job is boring even to a railway enthusiast and deceptively easy once past the initial training which is anything but!

Other way around for me. I found the rules and other parts of the training relatively straightforward. I wouldn’t say this job is easy.

A few years in the industry and I’ve seen enough people mess up and sadly several who have lost their jobs for various reasons. Especially at the “get your key” type TOCs where the intense nature of the work means incidents can rack up very quickly.

In this job a boring day at work is a good day! But even when everything goes according to plan the need to maintain concentration for long periods is a skill some people can never master.

We have a lot to be thankful for in this industry

Very true.

The reason the airline industry has gone the way it has is because airlines (and flight training schools) have wised up to the fact that people will pay over £100k to get into the career. Schools will charge student pilots for the training and then charge airlines for supplying ready made pilots.

The fact is that paying £100k to train up as a pilot with Flybe led to a job flying brutal schedules, including night stops, on turboprop aircraft for less than half of what many train drivers earn. Also with a requirement to relocate to bases in unpopular locations. And sadly of course for many it has now led to no job at all.

God forbid that the railway ever goes that way. Although I doubt driving trains has enough allure for most people to want to part with that kind of cash just to train up.

The railway and the driving grade, in particular, certainly has a lot to offer in terms of secure, well paid employment, which isn’t easy to come by in the aviation industry.

 

[cossie4i]

The DM you mention may well be the chap I’m talking about, I think he was Shrewsbury based back then around 2000?

No, this was late 80s for the manager and 91 for myself.

 

[craigybagel]

The DM you mention may well be the chap I’m talking about, I think he was Shrewsbury based back then around 2000?

No, this was late 80s for the manager and 91 for myself.

It may still be the same person - the DM who was at Shrewsbury around 2000 would be about the right age for the years mentioned. He used to be a member of this forum in fact but hasn't posted for a while....

 

[Economist]

Already a gliding club member and fly as much as I can. I'll start getting more and more involved and see if I can get involved with trial lessons and dealing with winch launching etc.

Didn't realise you were already flying, for some reason I didn't see your post last night. On the gliding front I'd suggest maybe going for the Silver C and subsequently your Basic Instructor rating. I didn't instruct myself before getting onto the trains but it would give some really good competency examples for the initial application and interviews. Cable breaks and wave-offs from the tuggy are quite handy examples for emergency situations. Also, take a look at the 7 Non-Technical Skills listed by the Rail Safety and Standards Board as being relevant to train driving, quite a few of the online questionnaires and indeed the wider assessment process reflects these NTS.

Already a gliding club member and fly as much as I can. I'll start getting more and more involved and see if I can get involved with trial lessons and dealing with winch launching etc.
The job thing is a difficult thing for me though, I'm currently in a very good position at one of the biggest companies in the UK, which fortunately means I earn a good amount money for someone my age and I also get to choose as and when I work in my current position... I'd be very reluctant to give this job up for another job on the railway when I've seen plenty of contradictory information on this forum where some people say it helps to gain a drivers job and plenty of people say it really makes no difference at all. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

I was in a similar situation, basically an office job, where if I'd stayed in the industry I was working in I probably could have done fairly well. Offices didn't do much for job satisfaction though, whereas I've preferred the train driving world considerably so far. I went straight in to driving having not worked on the railway, though after having got through all of the assessments first-time, I failed my first few management interviews. It took me just under two years from initial application to start date.

I was looking at applying for Flybe, but given its economic situation at the time I decided against it. My biggest fear with them would them going bankrupt and being thrown on the street with nothing. Looks like my nightmare was realised not too long after, I personally know a couple of cadets on their course that are now left with nothing, I also know some pilots who have also been thrown onto the streets with nothing but a Q400 type rating. Aviation is harsh and it's only getting worse, so as much as it pains me to look at another career i've just seen too many people fall victim to the industry.

Aviation is harsh and it's only getting worse, so as much as it pains me to look at another career i've just seen too many people fall victim to the industry.

God forbid that the railway ever goes that way. Although I doubt driving trains has enough allure for most people to want to part with that kind of cash just to train up.

It's really sad what's happened, especially considering back in the day there was Hamble where everything was on merit and, as seen on YouTube, they frequently took a VC-10 to Shannon and did 20-30 circuits for each cadet plus upper air work. I don't think it will be quite 10 years but it'll be at least 3 or 4. One of the main things that has kept T&Cs where they are on the trains is the fact that you can't pay to do it yourself. It keeps the numbers down and the supply/demand is more often than not in the drivers' favour.

 

[Railweigh]

Age isn’t a barrier. There were people on my course from 22 to over 50, and I know several 21 year olds who have fairly recently qualified.

The hardest thing is getting through the sift, which does seem to be pot luck.

 

[cossie4i]

It may still be the same person - the DM who was at Shrewsbury around 2000 would be about the right age for the years mentioned. He used to be a member of this forum in fact but hasn't posted for a while....

Definitely not the same person, was a Southeastern man.

 

[Trainguy90]

I made my first train movement when I was 24 and there was someone who was 22 on the same course, plenty of people about, I think older people are just more likely to ask if it’s still worth them applying or not, but again the oldest on my course was 54

 

[43066]

It's really sad what's happened, especially considering back in the day there was Hamble where everything was on merit and, as seen on YouTube, they frequently took a VC-10 to Shannon and did 20-30 circuits for each cadet plus upper air work.

It’s an unbelievable sea change that has taken place over the last 20 or so years. I first became interested in the aviation industry and started learning to fly in the late 90s. At that time BA were still offering fully paid training (for those that could pass their selection). The cadets were paid a salary from day one of starting their training. That’s unthinkable today (at least in the U.K. - less so in other parts of Europe where most of the National flag carriers still offer traditional cadet schemes).

The traditional route of instructor - airline pilot was still very much open. At the flying school I started my PPL at the instructors would do two years teaching PPL students and then go straight into the right hand seat of an airliner. That was in the days of the basic commercial pilots license which took 700 hours to convert into a CPL. The route was PPL, BCPL and FI rating, be paid to instruct to build your hours, and then have a realistic prospect of getting a decent airline job. Then 9/11 happened...

Nowadays it’s basically a rich man’s game. Even BA’s cadets have to either stump up the cash for the training or take out a loan (BA at least guarantees the loan for successful candidates who didn’t have any other security to offer (or asset-rich parents)).

The easyJet cadet schemes cost £120k and lead to what are effectively zero hours contracts, no “employee” status, no sick pay, and hundreds of pounds per month of loan repayments for many years. Again the starting salary is (or was) around £25k IIRC.

The traditional “self improver” route has largely gone. When I did my night rating in 2012* the instructor was moonlighting as a mini cab driver to make ends meet. On one day when I showed up to fly, and the WX wasn’t good enough, it had cost him money to be at work because he was only paid for hours flown. Last I heard he’d got a job at Flybe .

EASA has also had a terrible effect on pilots rostering arrangements etc (from the pilots’ perspective, not the airlines’!).

A good mate of mine is a pilot for a large charter operator at LGW. He’s been flying ten years, has thousands of jet hours, and is now doing his command. But, even at his level, he’s having to accept a base move he doesn’t want, and reckons it will take him years to get back to Gatwick.

He enjoys his job (mostly) but doesn’t recommend aviation as a career as he can only see things getting worse for those starting out in the industry.

I don't think it will be quite 10 years but it'll be at least 3 or 4. One of the main things that has kept T&Cs where they are on the trains is the fact that you can't pay to do it yourself. It keeps the numbers down and the supply/demand is more often than not in the drivers' favour.

Yep. And of course the supply of productive drivers is very inelastic. This is why drivers have a lot of power - if a TOC wanted to sack all its drivers overnight, even fully qualified drivers can take take many months to learn the route and become fully productive.

The requirement for route knowledge is drivers’ main bargaining chip. The way I can see that changing in the very long term is when in cab signalling (ERTMS) is rolled out over the network, and the need for route knowledge diminishes because the system tells you what the line speed is, where your next stop is etc. You could then imagine a scenario where agencies train up drivers (or “operators”) and supply them to TOCs. That would lead to a diminution in Ts and Cs as drivers’ bargaining power would be eroded.

We have a very long time to wait until that happens, though! It isn’t even operational in the Thameslink core, yet.

I drove around our absolute block diversionary route a couple of weeks ago - semaphore signals are still alive and well in 2020 on many parts of the network (they’re an absolute pig to drive to) and will be for another 20-30 years if not longer.

*incidentally, if you’re thinking of the modular route, I don’t recommend Stapleford. A truly terrible flying school from my dealings with them.

I remember moving heaven and earth to get out of work in time for a lesson one evening, trekking all the way up there, only to be told that the aircraft had gone tech that morning and the lesson was cancelled. I asked why nobody had bothered to phone me and received a shrug in response - not even an apology. Not what you want when you’re paying £150+ an hour for a knackered 1980s c152 and an even more knackered instructor.

Students, many of whom were paying the school tens of thousands of pounds for their training, were treated like dirt, and generally regarded as an inconvenience, by the reception staff. I also know someone who did the full PPL - FATPL with them and it was an absolute sh*t show from start to finish: lessons cancelled at short notice; instructors leaving/being sacked; aircraft going tech etc.

And the less said about the circuit discipline the better! I remember being cut up regularly and (several times) having to go around when aircraft had taxied onto the runway when I was on short final. Utter madness, and an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Ludus]

I'm surprised at the amount of aviation knowledge on this forum and people who have been at some point in their lives in the same boat as I am now. Makes me feel right at home to be surrounded by such like-minded people. As mentioned earlier on in this thread, I do like to think that once I get into a driving position that I honestly feel happy making the move to train driving and although we'll never lose the aviation bug, I can fulfil my flight cravings through gliding and other private flying activities. The only thing that really frightens me about it is making a mistake and being hung out to dry by a TOC, seems like quite a heavy burden to carry throughout a long driving career.

 

[43066]

I'm surprised at the amount of aviation knowledge on this forum and people who have been at some point in their lives in the same boat as I am now. Makes me feel right at home to be surrounded by such like-minded people. As mentioned earlier on in this thread, I do like to think that once I get into a driving position that I honestly feel happy making the move to train driving and although we'll never lose the aviation bug, I can fulfil my flight cravings through gliding and other private flying activities. The only thing that really frightens me about it is making a mistake and being hung out to dry by a TOC, seems like quite a heavy burden to carry throughout a long driving career.

Re. your earlier post about doing another railway job first, personally I wouldn’t bother, there’s simply no need. Just go straight for driving. Yes there is some negativity (even on here) about “boil in the bag” drivers but it’s dying out and is usually motivated by jealousy.

As a DM told me recently “Everyone on the railway falls into one of three categories: they want to be a driver; they’re already a driver; or they’re a failed driver”. That’s an exaggeration but there’s more than a grain of truth in there!

Re. the flying it’s increasingly clear that we’ve just woken up in September 2001, as far as the aviation industry is concerned , so there’s no rush to train.

I’d do a PPL, so some hours, distance learn the ATPLs, and consider going modular as and when things pick up. Especially as you have age firmly on your side by the sounds of things.

 

[Economist]

I'm surprised at the amount of aviation knowledge on this forum and people who have been at some point in their lives in the same boat as I am now. Makes me feel right at home to be surrounded by such like-minded people. As mentioned earlier on in this thread, I do like to think that once I get into a driving position that I honestly feel happy making the move to train driving and although we'll never lose the aviation bug, I can fulfil my flight cravings through gliding and other private flying activities. The only thing that really frightens me about it is making a mistake and being hung out to dry by a TOC, seems like quite a heavy burden to carry throughout a long driving career.

When I mentioned I was a train driver to my AME for my Class 2, he asked me if I knew a fairly well-known fellow at my place who I think has swapped planes for fast cars. As commercial flying has changed, lots of people go for the trains when they find out. There's at least two former commercial pilots on here who've moved to the trains, it's been suggested that one may have taken up the new challenge of learning French at work...

As for being hung out to dry, I know one TOC which is a bit brutal in training, certainly during Rules it's a case of fail one exam and that's it, at most places it's two attempts. There's also a few depots there which have a reputation for being difficult if you don't get on with your DM. Surprise, surprise, there's been a mass exodus, especially at certain depots with nearby options. One thing I'd be tempted to do (though I don't know if it's allowed) would be to rock up at my depot and ask who the ASLEF people are after the first day at the training school. Apparently, there's now restrictions on unions approaching trainees.

I should say that there are also TOCs which are totally the opposite, one I believe is nicknamed "Chillout" because the culture there is very good. Unsurprisingly, they've had a reputation for keeping hold of their staff.

I remember moving heaven and earth to get out of work in time for a lesson one evening, trekking all the way up there, only to be told that the aircraft had gone tech that morning and the lesson was cancelled. I asked why nobody had bothered to phone me and received a shrug in response - not even an apology. Not what you want when you’re paying £150+ an hour for a knackered 1980s c152 and an even more knackered instructor.

Students, many of whom were paying the school tens of thousands of pounds for their training, were treated like dirt, and generally regarded as an inconvenience, by the reception staff. I also know someone who did the full PPL - FATPL with them and it was an absolute sh*t show from start to finish: lessons cancelled at short notice; instructors leaving/being sacked; aircraft going tech etc.

And the less said about the circuit discipline the better! I remember being cut up regularly and (several times) having to go around when aircraft had taxied onto the runway when I was on short final. Utter madness, and an accident waiting to happen.

The reception staff at Stapleford don't appear to be too popular on one of the flying forums, though I was under the impression that the instruction there was supposed to be very good. Poor circuit discipline sounds nasty since it's so close to the CTR. That said, a couple of the integrated schools have nosedived reputationally, I know someone who was due to qualify last year but they kept being put back and just qualified in time for the downturn. If you're delayed in your training at certain TOCs, they'll pay you full qualified rate from 12 months onward, apparently TPE pay the full rate once a trainee has finished their Rules course.

Cessna 150/152s are generally knackered, the one I flew in today was no different and they have serious problems with the door latches, I've had a couple open in flight. It's like learning to drive in a Vauxhall Nova was the carpet peeling upwards in the corners and damp forming on the interior roof...