TOPS number allocations for future EMUs

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Carntyne, 30 Jul 2015.

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  1. Carntyne

    Carntyne Member

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    Mod Note: This thread has been split from a discussion here about the future ScotRail EMUs. I have included a few quotes to provide the context that led up to this post.

    It'll be a 3XX, though still not decided what the XX will be. Sure we'll hear soon though.
     
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  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Why wouldn't it be a 7XX though?
     
  4. 158722

    158722 Member

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    Aren't 7xx for dual voltage, 8xx for bi-mode E/D with 3xx being retained for pure AC and 4xx for pure DC?

    No plans for mass renumberings to 713s, 719s, 765s, 777s, etc?!
     
  5. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    No, 700 series are new ac/dc electric multiple units, 800 series is for high speed multiple units.

    What a new bi-mode 100mph unit would be is anyone's guess - 600 series ???
     
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    600-699 seems to be allocated to DMUs that are not 'high speed' (where high speed is greater than 190 km/h), there is no specific range for bi-modes in the group standard.

    I suppose they could just go in the existing diesel electric MU 200-299 possibly, there's loads of spare numbers...
     
  7. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    They wouldn't because then they'll just move the problem of running out of class numbers from 3xx to 7xx. The new sequences are only being introduced in order to make more class numbers available.
     
  8. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    7xx is for AC/Dual voltage, with 4xx for DC only (not that I think any new 4xx will be built)
     
  9. southern442

    southern442 Established Member

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    If it was down to me, I would fill all of the gaps in the EMU section (i.e. 326-331, 335-350, 351-356 etc.) before using the 7xx. It does seem to be a random process though, as there are some new classes (like the 374's and 345's) in the older section, but some (700, 707 etc.) in the new ones. Why is this? Not to mention the other possibilities with this system, such as putting dual-voltage units in the 4xx series (why not, especially as some 3xx units are 3rd rail only) and the fact that there is LOADS of room in the 5xx series for new build units (all the spaces from 509 onwards are free).
     
  10. XCTurbostar

    XCTurbostar Member

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    If the 7xx series are for AC/Dual Voltage.. Why are the 707s for SWT going into that series. Their 3rd Rail Only.

    Thanks,
    Ross
     
  11. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    For sure they will be AC capable even if not enabled. May also be because there has been, and is still, talk of progressive replacement, as assets become due for replacement, of 3rd rail with OHE....
     
  12. southern442

    southern442 Established Member

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    It is all very strange. The class 707 should be class 407, the class 345 should be 745, and the class 374 (the new Eurostar trains) should be in the 8xx series. Is there a reason behind this logic or is it just a random numbering system?

    'what should we call the new Crossrail order?'

    'I'm feeling 345 personally'

    'yeah, ok, 345 it is'
    :lol::lol:
     
  13. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    The class 707 is right where it is, it shouldn't be 407. Class 345 has historically always been the crossrail stock (I believe there was an artists impression of a class 345 'networker' variant for crossrail....). Class 374 is probably just because the current eurostars are class 373.
     
  14. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Class 345 (and before that, Class 341) has existed since before Crossrail had even been approved. Such conversation must've taken place at least ten years ago, long before it was decided to open up the 7xx or 8xx ranges :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 4 Aug 2015
  15. southern442

    southern442 Established Member

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    I see from an above post that the 707 trains are likely to have AC capability, so it seems that you are correct, it should be in the 7xx range.
     
  16. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Definitely they will be capable, in fact they are likely to be fitted with 25kV AC equipment out-of-the-box?
     
  17. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Someone has said that two will be delivered with the full AC equipment for acceptance trials, which will then be removed. The full class will be delivered with the capability to add AC specific equipment, e.g. pantograph and Transformer etc.

    So the same as the 444 and 450 basically, which should have been numbered somewhere in the 300 series originally, as they are just as much of an AC/DC unit as a DC only Electrostar.
     
  18. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Oh I see, what I'd heard was that Angel Trains had requested AC equipment to be fully fitted because the initial lease term is very short - only until the SWT franchise end in 2019. But I can't see why the fleet might be moved elsewhere.
     
  19. 158722

    158722 Member

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    Aren't the CrossRail units to be AC only, hence 345 is correct?

    Now what about the new LOROL order however? Some to be AC only, with a batch of 14 dual voltage ones for Euston-Watford & GOBLIN?!
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Yes, but the point is that they (Crossrail) had already reserved the 345 number range before the railway group standard was amended to newly introduce the additional classes in the 600, 700, and 800 ranges, because space was running out.

    So these numbering decisions are not right or wrong, they are just different, because time marches on and the goalposts get moved...
     
    Last edited: 5 Aug 2015
  21. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    I believe they have some sort of provision for DC operation if the route ever extends beyond Abbey Wood.
     
  22. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Would that not just be a case of the main bus, and the associated electronics fed from it being rated for 750V DC, which seems to be the standard bus voltage used in other modern EMUs (primarily for the sake of not having to have awkward inverter>transformer>rectifier setups from the shoegear on DC untis)
     
  23. Stats

    Stats Member

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    Both the 3xx and 7xx series are for ac and ac/dc multiple units so you can place them in either. why 3xx series has being explained. Likewise, the new LO units* fit this category and so will be 7xx series

    * LOROL doesn't have an order, being only the concession operator.
     
  24. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    There was something in the spec about being convertible to DC if necessary, although it was a few years ago when I was involved so it might have changed. I think this would include the design allowing for shoegear and connections to the DC bus to be added later, and some parts of this might actually be included if adding them later would be difficult. Shoegear in particular might be a bit tricky as I think the Aventras have inside bearing bogies so there's nothing obvious to attach it to.
     
  25. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    The Crossrail 345 will have provision for 750V DC, that much hasn't changed. Indeed, LO will require a dual-voltage capability from the Class 710s on order (the 14 units to be based at Willesden), whilst Crossrail 2 will require a dual-voltage fleet for at least the mid-term future.
     
    Last edited: 12 Dec 2015
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I think the DC Bus can run at different voltages. If you think of it in terms of a power transfer, it will just need to draw a higher current at the third rail voltage than when the DC is coming from the transformer/rectifier. Both cases do not occur together so as long as the traction converter can deal with the variation you'd be OK. It's also worth remembering that the '750V DC' system is only a nominal figure, it can swing quite a bit either side of that, up to around 850-900V IIRC.

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    Desiro City has the shoe gear connected to the bogie structure between the wheels, with no shoebeam. Problem solved.
     
    Last edited: 5 Aug 2015
  27. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Beware of looking for patterns or logic in TOPS... This way, madness lies!
     
  28. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Seems reasonable and I presume the provision for Crossrail would be to provide the same as they are doing on the Overground units. They just need to make sure some kind of attachment is included in the Crossrail bogie design.
     
  29. southern442

    southern442 Established Member

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    I still don't see why the 92 free spaces in the 5xx series aren't being used.
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Might they be in use as 5 digit individual vehicle numbers? The same amendments to the RSL scheme also introduced the 6 digit vehicle number as carried by the latest new classes.
     
  31. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    the Electrostars are a total mess, number wise:

    Don't get why the LTS ones were given "357". That seems to have been arbitrary.
    Then the SE ones got "375", swapping the last two digits. Class 376 followed on from there. 377 for the Southern ones, which are basically the same as 375s, was just being awkward. 378s took the next number, but are a development (ish) of the 376. 379s are an AC-only version of the later 377s*. "387" is a realisation that they'd painted themselves into a corner in the 37x series given that Eurostar had taken 374, being a 110mph-certified version of the later series 377s.


    Really, Class 375, 377 & 387 could be considered one class. Class 379 could even be included in that.

    *how difficult would turning the 379s dual voltage be?
     
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