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Could Tornado go for Mallard's speed record?

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gtis

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I see that the Tornado as been passed for up to 90 mph running I was wondering if in the future be allowed to go for Mallards steam record of 126 mph
Neil
 
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AndyY1951

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Whilst I usually believe anything is possible if the will is there, in this case I would categorically say NO, and stake money on it!
There's an awful lot of difference between the 100mph that Tornado ran at and 126mph, and don't forget that after doing this speed Mallard had to be taken off the train and its big-end bearing remetalled!
 

Jonny

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Whilst I usually believe anything is possible if the will is there, in this case I would categorically say NO, and stake money on it!
There's an awful lot of difference between the 100mph that Tornado ran at and 126mph, and don't forget that after doing this speed Mallard had to be taken off the train and its big-end bearing remetalled!

For those of us not familiar with steam locos, which part is the big end bearing?
 

AndyY1951

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Firstly, I should have been more precise and said the centre big-end bearing. A three-cylinder locomotive like Mallard has three big-end bearings, they are at the end of each connecting rod where it drives the crank pin or, in the case of the centre one, the crank axle. (The little ends are at the other ends of the connecting rods where they attach to the piston rods). The Gresley conjugated valve gear, which derives the motion for the centre cylinder's valve-gear from the motion of the outer two, is notorious for making the centre cylinder do more than its share of the work at high speeds, overstressing the middle big-end bearing. This is fitted with a 'stink-bomb' which warns the crew of overheating of the bearing.
 

MarkyT

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While the big end bearing wear and failures are a matter of fact, as are characteristic centre right driving axlebox problems on the A4s (also experienced more recently on Flying Scotsman), it is far from proven that these arise as a direct result of the particular valve gear used in the design. Other high power three cylinder common axle drive locomotives with completely different valve gear designs also suffered from similar problems through history, including the LMS Royal Scots. In service failures of these items on the A4s were completely eliminated by more frequent component replacement in their latter years with both middle driving axleboxes and big end bearing changed at reduced mileages under maintenance.

The huge forces involved with all three cylinders driving one axle, and the effects of the indifferent track of the day, particularly in yards and depots, where tight dog leg curves could put undesired stresses on long fixed wheelbases, could also contribute to frame flexing and undesired stresses on bearings, and frame plating strength was always a compromise due to weight restrictions and the dearth of space for additional bracing in the area due to the connecting rod, crank and big end flying around in the middle. On a number of occasions at Top Shed my father observed slight bending in the frame plates around the centre driving axle on A4s.

I suspect there's also a gyroscopic effect in play at very high speeds. One of the big advantages claimed for three cylinder common axle drive is the almost perfect balance of the drive axle. This is claimed to result in very low track forces, especially as compared to classic two cylinder locomotives. Perhaps such an axle, acting as such a huge perfectly balanced 'flywheel' and rotating at the highest express speeds, displays a marked gyroscopic stability, as compared to the other less well balanced axles which are being thrown around more vigorously by the track and displacing the frames commensurately. That would exert some significant short high energy stresses on the centre axle bearings, and it's notable the unusual right centre driving axlebox wear was always slightly conical when investigated, suggesting some sort of oscillation of the axle with respect to the frames.

The Peppercorn A1s by contrast were designed with the divided drive concept introduced by Thompson, which theoretically is not so perfectly balanced. That may actually be an advantage if the notional gyroscope effects don't come into effect to the same extent. A1s, not just the roller bearing example, suffered no unusual axlebox or big end bearing issues but that could just be because they didn't have all that power concentrated on the one perfectly balanced axle, rather than any differences in valve gear. Conjugated gear was used with a split drive three cylinder express loco design, the B17 rather than any pacific, but perhaps the post war A1s and A2s could have been similarly equipped and have been just as reliable as they were with their entirely seperate middle cylinder valve gear.

We shall never know. Just a wild theory anyway!
 

MarkyT

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As to the original issue, the streamlining was important for Mallard's record run. It starts to make a real difference at speeds over 100 mph, which Tornado has briefly touched of course on the famous test run. LNER considered a streamlined casing for the Peppercorn A1s, but by the time the locos were finally ordered by BR, such extravagance could not be justified. So while Tornado has a more capable boiler, so is theoretically slightly more powerful than an A4, and with the same size driving wheels and cylinder stroke should be capable of similar speeds, without streamlining it has no chance of beating Mallard. Even if a rich benefactor was to pay for a new streamlined casing to create a 'might have been' I would not expect the A1SLT to take the enormous risk of severely damaging their primary asset by pushing it to even higher speeds than achieved so far.
 

Cowley

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As to the original issue, the streamlining was important for Mallard's record run. It starts to make a real difference at speeds over 100 mph, which Tornado has briefly touched of course on the famous test run. LNER considered a streamlined casing for the Peppercorn A1s, but by the time the locos were finally ordered by BR, such extravagance could not be justified. So while Tornado has a more capable boiler, so is theoretically slightly more powerful than an A4, and with the same size driving wheels and cylinder stroke should be capable of similar speeds, without streamlining it has no chance of beating Mallard. Even if a rich benefactor was to pay for a new streamlined casing to create a 'might have been' I would not expect the A1SLT to take the enormous risk of severely damaging their primary asset by pushing it to even higher speeds than achieved so far.
Definitely.
I think Mallards speed record is one that the rest of the world has to beat.
We’ve done our bit... ;)

Regarding the overheated bearing that’s very interesting about your fathers observations. On the actual record breaking run I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the reason for the damage was shutting the power off too quickly (probably because they had too), and if there’d been the opportunity to slow down more gradually then it might have put less stress on the big end. Would that make any sense or would it have been inevitable after that much speed?
 

hexagon789

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Regarding the overheated bearing that’s very interesting about your fathers observations. On the actual record breaking run I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the reason for the damage was shutting the power off too quickly (probably because they had too), and if there’d been the opportunity to slow down more gradually then it might have put less stress on the big end. Would that make any sense or would it have been inevitable after that much speed?

As with all trains it is good practice to shut off power gradually rather than go from full power to no power. In the case of steam locos the regulator should be moved to just open held there for a moment and then closed, it removes the jerk that comes from shutting power off too quickly and reducing wear. Similarly, braking should be done gradually. Drop the vacuum down to about 18", feel the brakes bite take it down to about 15". Then half-way to your stopping point drop it to 8" and aim to stop on a rising needle (the brakes releasing). It's important to brake gradually in steam locos as braking too hard to quickly can cause the water in the boiler to slosh about and expose the tubes potentially causing damage.

At 126 mph though I doubt the crew had much choice in the matter. Mallard's record was attained on track with a 90 mph speed limit, something the permanent way lot weren't all to pleased about. They had to slow to 20 mph for the junctions at Essendine anyway and that harsh acceleration and sustained high speed would probably take its toll on the best if engines.
 

Cowley

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As with all trains it is good practice to shut off power gradually rather than go from full power to no power. In the case of steam locos the regulator should be moved to just open held there for a moment and then closed, it removes the jerk that comes from shutting power off too quickly and reducing wear. Similarly, braking should be done gradually. Drop the vacuum down to about 18", feel the brakes bite take it down to about 15". Then half-way to your stopping point drop it to 8" and aim to stop on a rising needle (the brakes releasing). It's important to brake gradually in steam locos as braking too hard to quickly can cause the water in the boiler to slosh about and expose the tubes potentially causing damage.

At 126 mph though I doubt the crew had much choice in the matter. Mallard's record was attained on track with a 90 mph speed limit, something the permanent way lot weren't all to pleased about. They had to slow to 20 mph for the junctions at Essendine anyway and that harsh acceleration and sustained high speed would probably take its toll on the best if engines.

Thanks Hexagon. Those guys must have had nerves of steel and an incredible knowledge of the machine they were in charge of as they drew out every last tiny bit of performance from her.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks Hexagon. Those guys must have had nerves of steel and an incredible knowledge of the machine they were in charge of as they drew out every last tiny bit of performance from her.

I believe that they ran the loco pretty hard indeed, I think I've seen mention of a 40% cutoff, whereas you'd generally have the reverser on about 15-20% cutoff for high speed running.
 

MarkyT

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Mallard's record was attained on track with a 90 mph speed limit, something the permanent way lot weren't all to pleased about. They had to slow to 20 mph for the junctions at Essendine anyway and that harsh acceleration and sustained high speed would probably take its toll on the best if engines.

Even if it was approved at a very high level in that department, were local permanent way even aware of the real intentions beforehand? I have read the run was described as a 'brake test' in notices. The intent to go for a record was possibly briefed only on a very limited 'need to know' basis.
 

hexagon789

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Even if it was approved at a very high level in that department, were local permanent way even aware of the real intentions beforehand? I have read the run was described as a 'brake test' in notices. The intent to go for a record was possibly briefed only on a very limited 'need to know' basis.

It was very much cloak and dagger, and officially a "high-speed brake test". I doubt the local p'way staff knew of the attempt, they may have tried to halt it if they had.

To say the were a bit peeved at what previous attempts were doing to the track would be a bit of an understatement!
 

hexagon789

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Am I right in thinking that Tornado will still be timed for 75 mph, 90 mph running being only to recover lost time?
 

hexagon789

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Talking of Mallard's record and 90 mph steam has reminded me of the "sprightly" running of the A4s on the Glasgow-Aberdeens from 1962-66. The Scottish Region had a 75 mph limit at the time but speeds of 90+ between Kinnaber Jcn and Stanley Jcn and 80 between Gleneagles and Dunblane were regularly attained.

Hopefully it's not too long before we have regular 90 mile-an-hour steam again :)
 

Andrewh32

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Am I right in thinking that Tornado will still be timed for 75 mph, 90 mph running being only to recover lost time?

The Ebor flyer Kings Cross to York 14 April is being advertised as her first 90mph tour, so sounds like most will 75mph with occasional 90mph tours/runs
 

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The Ebor flyer Kings Cross to York 14 April is being advertised as her first 90mph tour, so sounds like most will 75mph with occasional 90mph tours/runs
Quite something when you think back to the early 90s when there was a statutory (albeit sometimes ignored) 60mph limit on mainline steam...
 

hexagon789

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Quite something when you think back to the early 90s when there was a statutory (albeit sometimes ignored) 60mph limit on mainline steam...

Indeed, I wonder if they will they ever allow the full 'ton' or if that is wishful thinking?
 

EbbwJunction1

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Just a few random thoughts:

Would it not be really difficult to get permission to make an attempt on Mallard's record?

I guess (and I honestly don't know) that the original stretch of line used for the record would have to be used again as there's nowhere else. Do the problems at the end of the stretch referred to in Heagon789's post 8 still exist and, if they do, would permission for an attempt even be considered, far less given?

Also, in this day and age of publicity for everything through social media, would it be practical (or desirable) to make an attempt in secret or would it have to be publicised beforehand with all the attendant problems (i.e. if it failed)?
 

hexagon789

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I guess (and I honestly don't know) that the original stretch of line used for the record would have to be used again as there's nowhere else. Do the problems at the end of the stretch referred to in Heagon789's post 8 still exist and, if they do, would permission for an attempt even be considered, far less given?

I'm pretty sure it's the full 125 through Essendine these days. Additionally Tornado was going to pull a rake of specially refurbished Mk3s I believe, which with disc brakes are far more suited to high speeds. Tornado of course, as do many steam engines these days, has air braking capability which is quicker in application (and on the case of the more modern two-pipe air system release also) than the vacuum especially on longer trains.

Maybe Tornado+5 Mk3s = 126+ mph in the future? Who knows, we can but dream. 8-)
 

alexl92

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There is a part of me that actually doesn't want Mallard's record to be broken. I don't mean I want to live in the past, consumed by nostalgia. But it was such an extraordinary feat that so far, 80 years on, it still hasn't been broken. I would be intrigued to see what Tornado can really do, I think most people are. But I hope if it ever does happen, I hope it doesn't dilute how absolutely incredible the achievement was to have managed that in 1938.
 

70014IronDuke

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Just a few random thoughts:

Would it not be really difficult to get permission to make an attempt on Mallard's record?

YES.

I guess (and I honestly don't know) that the original stretch of line used for the record would have to be used again as there's nowhere else.

YES. Or possibly the Midland main line, from MP 34 to MP 46 (approx) on the down could be used today.

Do the problems at the end of the stretch referred to in Heagon789's post 8 still exist and, if they do, would permission for an attempt even be considered, far less given?

No. No and then, of course, No.

Also, in this day and age of publicity for everything through social media, would it be practical (or desirable) to make an attempt in secret or would it have to be publicised beforehand with all the attendant problems (i.e. if it failed)?

The latter would be an issue in this day and age, but we will never get to worry about it.

First, the A1 Society would never try it. Going from 100 to 125 mph might 'seem like a 25%' increase, but the forces involved in the rotating and reciprocating masses will rise disproportionally, I think in some cases to the square of the rotational speed. So the actual forces involved on some components are likely to be twice what the were at 100 mph. That is an awful lot of stress to bear. If any part should fail catastrophically, the direct financial cost could be enormous (let alone the bad publicity for all involved).

Second, as MarkyT notes, I'd bet the loco almost certainly could not produce the power to overcome the considerable extra drag caused by the flat front end versus the streamlining of the A4. So again, the A1 people would not even consider it.

Third, even if the A1 Society were taken over by a 126-mph-manic billionaire, Network Rail would not countenance the idea.

More chance of four-tracking the Whitby branch.
It won't happen.
 
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I think a lot of the mech. engineering aspects have been covered. But from an historical perspective, I don't think many within the steam/preservation movement would actually want Mallard's record to be broken. It was such an acheivement at the time, given the infrastructure and equipment at their disposal, it would be a bit of a hollow and meaningless victory to beat it.

What's more, there's always the danger that if Tornado, or anyone for that matter, attempted to set a new record it might backfire by encouraging other countries to do the same. It would be a bit depressing to see Mallard's record beaten by the DB Class 05 or an American loco if we started a new record-race that we couldn't finish. I say let the old girl and her records be.
 

Cowley

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I think a lot of the mech. engineering aspects have been covered. But from an historical perspective, I don't think many within the steam/preservation movement would actually want Mallard's record to be broken. It was such an acheivement at the time, given the infrastructure and equipment at their disposal, it would be a bit of a hollow and meaningless victory to beat it.

What's more, there's always the danger that if Tornado, or anyone for that matter, attempted to set a new record it might backfire by encouraging other countries to do the same. It would be a bit depressing to see Mallard's record beaten by the DB Class 05 or an American loco if we started a new record-race that we couldn't finish. I say let the old girl and her records be.
I very much agree Mr Woodbine.
 

70014IronDuke

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I think a lot of the mech. engineering aspects have been covered. But from an historical perspective, I don't think many within the steam/preservation movement would actually want Mallard's record to be broken. It was such an acheivement at the time, given the infrastructure and equipment at their disposal, it would be a bit of a hollow and meaningless victory to beat it.

What's more, there's always the danger that if Tornado, or anyone for that matter, attempted to set a new record it might backfire by encouraging other countries to do the same. It would be a bit depressing to see Mallard's record beaten by the DB Class 05 or an American loco if we started a new record-race that we couldn't finish. I say let the old girl and her records be.

Actually, I see it absolutely the opposite - and I promise I'm not being perverse for the sake of it. Any attempt to beat Mallard's record would be a win-win for the A4's, Sir Nigel Gresley's and even Britain's reputuation. (I'd rather not use the term "brand" - it sounds so cheap and tacky.) Well, ok, maybe not if it was the DB 05 doing it!

But think about it. If Tornado, or any attempt were made - be it in Germany or, I don't know - China? - it would focus media attention on the whole 1938 event. That alone is positive.

If the new attempt were successful, kudos to the winner, but the line for Gresley fans would be: "Only after 80+ years, and aided by the most modern technology and under perfect conditions, has Mallard's record been broken!" There is no shame whatsoever in that.
And if the new attempt were not successful - well, it's even more impressive! Ditto the line above, except to say Even after 80+ years, ..... etc, Mallard's achievment remains unbeatable!

It would be as if, I don't know, someone tried to build a modern version of a WW2 four-engined bomber, and it was found to be inferior to the Lancaster/Halifax.

But I think that therein lies yet one more reason why the A1 boys - indeed, why nobody else - would consider trying it - the ignominy of failure. Because you couldn't keep it secret, and the media would then make it look like, eg Tornado were a failure.

Which would be silly in the case of the A1 because it was not built (neither the original locomotives, nor Tornado) to outdo Mallard in terms of speed: the A1s were built to haul 400 tonne expresses more effciently and more economically than Mallard - and I think that in the 1950s they already proved they could do that.

And that is just if it couldn't make the 126 mph speed - the fall out if there were to be an actual mechanical failure, leet alone some incident endangering life, would be horrendous. (The Daily Groan: "Why did Network Rail allow trainspotters to risk life and limb to play steam trains? ..... etc etc)

It would be interesting to talk to those who were on the 100 mph Tornado test run to see what they thought the locomotive had in reserve with a bit more distance to reach its absolute ceiling on the level. My gut feeling would be around 105-108 mph, ie something like Papyrus (I think it was) back in the 30s. If it could try it down Stoke bank, or on the Midland (perhaps in the up, down Sharnbrook Bank - short, sweet and steep - I should have not omitted that possibility) - maybe 115 mph?

But at the end of the day, it should be mentioned, that - despite national pride etc - the German achievement of 125 mph on the level, really topped that of Mallard's in terms of genuine engineering performance.
Never mind, we can allow them that - and just be grateful we had the Spitfire.
 
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Actually, I see it absolutely the opposite - and I promise I'm not being perverse for the sake of it. Any attempt to beat Mallard's record would be a win-win for the A4's, Sir Nigel Gresley's and even Britain's reputuation. (I'd rather not use the term "brand" - it sounds so cheap and tacky.) Well, ok, maybe not if it was the DB 05 doing it!

But think about it. If Tornado, or any attempt were made - be it in Germany or, I don't know - China? - it would focus media attention on the whole 1938 event. That alone is positive.

If the new attempt were successful, kudos to the winner, but the line for Gresley fans would be: "Only after 80+ years, and aided by the most modern technology and under perfect conditions, has Mallard's record been broken!" There is no shame whatsoever in that.
And if the new attempt were not successful - well, it's even more impressive! Ditto the line above, except to say Even after 80+ years, ..... etc, Mallard's achievment remains unbeatable!

It would be as if, I don't know, someone tried to build a modern version of a WW2 four-engined bomber, and it was found to be inferior to the Lancaster/Halifax.

But I think that therein lies yet one more reason why the A1 boys - indeed, why nobody else - would consider trying it - the ignominy of failure. Because you couldn't keep it secret, and the media would then make it look like, eg Tornado were a failure.

Which would be silly in the case of the A1 because it was not built (neither the original locomotives, nor Tornado) to outdo Mallard in terms of speed: the A1s were built to haul 400 tonne expresses more effciently and more economically than Mallard - and I think that in the 1950s they already proved they could do that.

And that is just if it couldn't make the 126 mph speed - the fall out if there were to be an actual mechanical failure, leet alone some incident endangering life, would be horrendous. (The Daily Groan: "Why did Network Rail allow trainspotters to risk life and limb to play steam trains? ..... etc etc)

It would be interesting to talk to those who were on the 100 mph Tornado test run to see what they thought the locomotive had in reserve with a bit more distance to reach its absolute ceiling on the level. My gut feeling would be around 105-108 mph, ie something like Papyrus (I think it was) back in the 30s. If it could try it down Stoke bank, or on the Midland (perhaps in the up, down Sharnbrook Bank - short, sweet and steep - I should have not omitted that possibility) - maybe 115 mph?

But at the end of the day, it should be mentioned, that - despite national pride etc - the German achievement of 125 mph on the level, really topped that of Mallard's in terms of genuine engineering performance.
Never mind, we can allow them that - and just be grateful we had the Spitfire.

A lot of good comments there, and you're right that increased public attention to Mallard might be no bad thing.

It's a bit simmilar to the hour-record in track cycling. Eddy Merckx set it in the 1970s with the best kit of the time (a steel frame bike) and remained unbeaten until carbon-fibre and wind-tunnels took over. At that point the cycling authorities declared two records, one for people using 1970s kit; the other for modern bikes. A locmotive nowardays, with +125mph track and sensors monitoring every movement & metric, couldn't really claim to be competing on a level playing-field to any record set 80 years ago.

Speaking of level playing-field, didn't the DB Class 05 have a much lighter trailing-load, only of two or three carriages, compared to Mallard's full rake?
 

70014IronDuke

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Speaking of level playing-field, didn't the DB Class 05 have a much lighter trailing-load, only of two or three carriages, compared to Mallard's full rake?

Wiki here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_05
says a fraction under 200 tonnes. Definitely feather weight (and not economical loads) for both locos really. It's not clear why they did not build more 05s - perhaps it was the war, perhaps it was that they were just too specialised and expensive - note that DB reduced the boiler pressure from 290 psi to 230 psi after the war.
In that sense, the A4s could claim to be the winner in terms of useful, highish speed designs - I mean the class of 34/35 worked for 25 years on front line service (counting the Aberdeen-Glasgow trains of the mid 60s.)
 

Trainfan344

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I'm pretty certain I've read that the A1SLT have no interest in going after Mallard's record.
 
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