Tpe 350

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SkinnyDave

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Hi
What routes will the new 350s be used on or is it just going to be the Scotland to Manchester Airport routes that get the new units?
 
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tbtc

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Hi
What routes will the new 350s be used on or is it just going to be the Scotland to Manchester Airport routes that get the new units?
Basically, yes. There won't be enough to run on anything else too (and there's no guarantee of the Blackpool route being part of TPE in the long term).

No idea what will go on the TPE North route a few years later
 

ainsworth74

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No idea what will go on the TPE North route a few years later
What I would like:

A 444 type EMU probably in a four car formation, with through gangway connections and maybe a micro buffet as well.

What I think we'll get:

A 379/380 type EMU (or whatever their equivalent is in a few years) in four car formation. Basically an electric version of the 185.

Either way I think that might be an interesting fleet to specify as there are somewhat disparate requirements on the route.
 

SkinnyDave

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What I would like:

A 444 type EMU probably in a four car formation, with through gangway connections and maybe a micro buffet as well.

What I think we'll get:

A 379/380 type EMU (or whatever their equivalent is in a few years) in four car formation. Basically an electric version of the 185.

Either way I think that might be an interesting fleet to specify as there are somewhat disparate requirements on the route.
I'm not sure what magazine it was I read having a pop at DFT for rolling stock but they were amazed that they didn't consider 6 car pendolinos for TPE on the Scotland to Manchester routes instead of 350s
Fair shout in my opinion
 

Class377/5

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What I would like:

A 444 type EMU probably in a four car formation, with through gangway connections and maybe a micro buffet as well.

What I think we'll get:

A 379/380 type EMU (or whatever their equivalent is in a few years) in four car formation. Basically an electric version of the 185.

Either way I think that might be an interesting fleet to specify as there are somewhat disparate requirements on the route.
A new class 380/Desro City type unit would seem very sensible but as a temporary measure the 350's fill a temporary need. The TPE wires will see a new fleet ordered and I bet Siemens will be after that.

I'm not sure what magazine it was I read having a pop at DFT for rolling stock but they were amazed that they didn't consider 6 car pendolinos for TPE on the Scotland to Manchester routes instead of 350s
Fair shout in my opinion
Wasn't it stated that 5 car 390's were offered but turned down?
 

ainsworth74

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A new class 380/Desro City type unit would seem very sensible but as a temporary measure the 350's fill a temporary need.
Oh yes the 350s make a lot of sense as a stop gap measure and will provide a nice little extra lump of capacity for LM in six or so years when the fleet for the newly wired TP North is acquired (as I would assume that will be when the Manchester - Scotland route will get it's permanent allocation of EMUs).
 

Class377/5

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Oh yes the 350s make a lot of sense as a stop gap measure and will provide a nice little extra lump of capacity for LM in six or so years when the fleet for the newly wired TP North is acquired (as I would assume that will be when the Manchester - Scotland route will get it's permanent allocation of EMUs).
It's a buy once, get three PR boosts for it! (1 TPE units start in service, 2 LM units start, 3 TPE units transfer to LM).

I can't wait to see a 350/4 in TPE livery.
 

rail-britain

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I believe there is a complete failure by DfT here
Many of the currently underloaded West Coast Trains services are to be transferred to the new TransPennine Express franchise
However as has been pointed out by a MP from Cumbria the current demand will push some of these services over their current capacity (comparing a Class 390 against a hybrid Class 185/350 as specified by DfT)
As yet the DfT have not responded to the MP request for clarification of the concerns raised but it will have to be within the next few months

It would have made sense to purchase a more suitable EMU, for both TPE and West Coast, used on Manchester and Birmingham respectively
 

SkinnyDave

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What services are due to transfer from icwc?
I agree I think a baby pendo would be a far better choice
 

tbtc

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Yeah, the 350s make sense in the short/medium term - get the electrified service via Wigan bedded in, get an idea for passenger numbers (since it won't run via Bolton), then introduce something more suitable (possibly replacing the Voyagers on Birmingham - Central Belt and also London - Crewe/Chester too), which could then also be the template for the TPE North/ MML/ GEML etc...
 

fireftrm

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Won't the Voyagers on B'ham to Scotland still be West Coast? Also the e-voyager project should see them being dual mode and so no need to replace them.

My understanding is that the 350 order for TPE is to replace some 185s and this will mean them being short term only in regards to the via Wigan, two years later they will run via Bolton. They aren't intended as a stop gap but THE stock? They will be 110mph.
 

sprinterguy

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Won't the Voyagers on B'ham to Scotland still be West Coast? Also the e-voyager project should see them being dual mode and so no need to replace them.
The most recent reported form of the e-Voyager project indicates that it is only intended to add a pantograph coach to Crosscountry's thirty four 220s, and will not affect the 221s. And why add a pantograph coach to what will remain a diesel multiple unit, with the extra weight of lugging around unused diesel engines and transmissions, when true EMUs could be procured to operate the same service?

The Birmingham to Scotland services are indeed remaining with the West Coast franchise. I cannot decipher what services rail-britain might be suggesting will transfer to the Transpennine Express franchise (Which itself may well be combined with the Northern franchise). There is absolutely nothing that springs to mind, and TPE would not have the rolling stock to cover any additional services on the West Coast.
 

rail-britain

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What services are due to transfer from icwc?
Basically anything and everything that West Coast Trains don't currently want

The first two southbound departures from Carlisle are going to TPE (one of those is from Glasgow) and the last northbound arrival at Carlisle

The stopping pattern is to be changed and simplified
Basically Motherwell, Lockerbie, Penrith and Oxenholme will primarily be served by TPE, where duplication occurs within 1 hour West Coast Trains will no longer serve those stations
See the Sample TPE timetable for how this affects TPE
The West Coast timetable is still provisional and has to be agreed by the new franchisee within 4 weeks of being awarded the franchise

There are other changes to the West Coast franchise, basically Carlisle / Preston become the main interchange points, allowing the majority of Glasgow - Euston to run non-stop between Preston and Euston
 

WatcherZero

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Won't the Voyagers on B'ham to Scotland still be West Coast? Also the e-voyager project should see them being dual mode and so no need to replace them.

My understanding is that the 350 order for TPE is to replace some 185s and this will mean them being short term only in regards to the via Wigan, two years later they will run via Bolton. They aren't intended as a stop gap but THE stock? They will be 110mph.
The switch to via Wigan rather than via Bolton is planned to be permanent, relieves commuter crowding on the Bolton corridor and provides a fast 20 minute time saving between Wigan and Manchester. Should eventually be joined by an additional Northern electric service on the same route between Wigan and Manchester too.

The 350's for TPE are supposed to be temporary though, while initially doubled frequency and fewer Bolton commuters means four car can cope they will eventually need longer stock (and stock more suited to long distance), tacking the order onto a London Midland order meant they could order a cost effective small fleet of 110mph electric trains relatively quickly without a time consuming procurement competition. Long term it makes sense for TPE (or its replacement) to gain a larger unified fleet of higher capacity long distance stock that it can use on other electrified TPE routes too.
 

calc7

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Basically anything and everything that West Coast Trains don't currently want

The first two southbound departures from Carlisle are going to TPE (one of those is from Glasgow) and the last northbound arrival at Carlisle

The stopping pattern is to be changed and simplified
Basically Motherwell, Lockerbie, Penrith and Oxenholme will primarily be served by TPE, where duplication occurs within 1 hour West Coast Trains will no longer serve those stations
See the Sample TPE timetable for how this affects TPE
The West Coast timetable is still provisional and has to be agreed by the new franchisee within 4 weeks of being awarded the franchise

There are other changes to the West Coast franchise, basically Carlisle / Preston become the main interchange points, allowing the majority of Glasgow - Euston to run non-stop between Preston and Euston
That's interesting - could you direct me where I can read further about these proposals?

Do you know what the reduction in the London - Preston and Preston - Glasgow times of these services will be?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Wasn't it stated that 5 car 390's were offered but turned down?
A 390 order would have to start from the beginning (3+ years lead time).
A 350 order is just a run-on from the previous LM order.
The 390 solution was probably not "turned down" but ignored by the DfT as the procurement timescale was too long.
LM/TP just ordered what the DfT told them to.
 

Class377/5

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A 390 order would have to start from the beginning (3+ years lead time).
A 350 order is just a run-on from the previous LM order.
The 390 solution was probably not "turned down" but ignored by the DfT as the procurement timescale was too long.
LM/TP just ordered what the DfT told them to.
I guessed something like this may have been a factor. Also fact that they now are wiring up TP, it does make sense to have the 350/4 as a temporary measure then introduce a proper purpose built fleet in a few years times. I'm hoping it's a 380/700 mash up.
 

387star

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Won't the Voyagers on B'ham to Scotland still be West Coast? Also the e-voyager project should see them being dual mode and so no need to replace them.

My understanding is that the 350 order for TPE is to replace some 185s and this will mean them being short term only in regards to the via Wigan, two years later they will run via Bolton. They aren't intended as a stop gap but THE stock? They will be 110mph.
Surely the new west coast franchise is looking to replace the voyagers. On the North Wales run they can use 57s?

The e-project will be announced late this year and is moving at a slow pace according to Rail I can understand the voyagers need to be lengthened but without doing anything about the super voyagers which might as well be called voyagers XC will have to diagram the fleet separately?

Is it true the voyagers are crampt so they can tilt yet they can't tilt and were never supposed to tilt?
 

sprinterguy

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Is it true the voyagers are crampt so they can tilt yet they can't tilt and were never supposed to tilt?
The bodyshell of the 220s and 221s is built to a tilt profile, yes, but the 220s were never intended to tilt. And of course all of Crosscountrys' 221s, which were built with tilt ability and operated as such in Virgin days, have all had the ability to tilt removed.
 

rail-britain

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Surely the new west coast franchise is looking to replace the voyagers
It doesn't look that way
The franchise bids have to respond with details of :
If additional rolling stock is required, when it will be required (and can and how it will be funded)
The diesel Voyagers have the ability to be converted when used with an additional coach with pantgraph / transformer, the Pendolino trains have the ability to be operated in a formation shorter than 9 coaches, bidders should take both options into account or provide other solutions they feel are more appropriate to provide additional capacity
 

Robbies

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It doesn't look that way
The franchise bids have to respond with details of :
If additional rolling stock is required, when it will be required (and can and how it will be funded)
The diesel Voyagers have the ability to be converted when used with an additional coach with pantgraph / transformer, the Pendolino trains have the ability to be operated in a formation shorter than 9 coaches, bidders should take both options into account or provide other solutions they feel are more appropriate to provide additional capacity
If I was in the position of the Franchisee, I would ask for the Voyagers to have the pantograph carriage added, as I know when I went up to Chester on a 5 car from London Euston it got a bit cramped and was glad I had a reserved seat.
 
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