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TPE 350s Scotland

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Haydn1971

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I'm not keen on long fixed formation units, much prefer the flexibility offered by shorter fixed forms with through connection coupled up to create longer units - 4 car units (24/25m car length) on TPE NW would give great flexibility, giving 4, 8 or 12 carriages, but admittedly wouldn't work for TPE North/South, which would probably need to stick to 3/6 car formations. Plus surely it's not beyond the genius of man to predict passenger numbers based on ticket sales using a few algorithms to look at previous travel history of travellers with flexible tickets.
 
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pemma

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DfT clearly doesn't want that to happen because it has specified high-quality stock for the transferred TPE services.
Also all the other Northern services are to be upgraded.
Why should (eg) Bradford-Leeds, or Liverpool-Preston be "low quality services" just because they don't fit into an arbitrary "XC" bracket?
DfT wants two complementary "high quality" franchises serving different markets in the north.

For non-regional express routes the spec says older trains should get new modern interiors, it doesn't guarantee anything like high quality seats or tables at seats. Pretty much the only thing guaranteed (other than accessibility improvements) is wi-fi. The spec does also say regional express standard stock can be used on routes where it's not a franchise requirement.
 

Chrism20

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I'd say short-sighted. Go 8-car now and there's room for the future.

Couldn't agree more with this, we could end up with the voyager problem and extra carriages are refused.

Even if it were to end up 225s I'd be tempted to leave them as nine car sets.
 

Haydn1971

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Wouldn't fit in key stations (Oxford Road and Manchester Airport).

8x23m is about the maximum feasible.


Which returns to my question earlier - just how long are the proposed Oxford Road and Piccadilly platforms ? To be fair, Manchester Airport is easy to lengthen.
 

Senex

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Which returns to my question earlier - just how long are the proposed Oxford Road and Piccadilly platforms ? To be fair, Manchester Airport is easy to lengthen.

Does new construction/major rebuilding have to conform to the TSIs? I thought they wanted 400-metre platforms (i.e. two ICE/TGV sets coupled). Are we exempt?
 

Haydn1971

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Just done a quick google - Network Rail don't seem able to say specifically beyond extending to 8 car length, stating that existing 8 car trains need to use SDO - given a 350 works fine on platform 4 with all doors opening, it's not unreasonable to suggest that 8 cars at 23-24 metres is being accommodated, but begs the question, are 26m SET carriages being used as the norm carriage length now ?
 

driver9000

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Just done a quick google - Network Rail don't seem able to say specifically beyond extending to 8 car length, stating that existing 8 car trains need to use SDO - given a 350 works fine on platform 4 with all doors opening, it's not unreasonable to suggest that 8 cars at 23-24 metres is being accommodated, but begs the question, are 26m SET carriages being used as the norm carriage length now ?

While it is true that an 8 car 350 fits at Oxford Road platform 4 in the Up direction that isn't the case on platform 2 or 4 in the Down direction. This is for signal sighting reasons with the right sided signals in that the train had to stop a bit further back than other trains because of the way the gangway doors block out any visibility to the right side of the cab. An 8 car 350 will only open the doors of the leading unit.
 

hibtastic

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Had my first trip on a TPE 350 this weekend heading from Edinburgh to Wigan NW. I wasn't that impressed. I found them to be quite claustrophobic inside with no plugs or wifi. There wasn't a trolley service either. This was an 8-car 350 and upon leaving Edinburgh I couldn't see many spare seats.

Returned today on a Pendolino, much nicer IMHO.

As an aside, The northern 319 was good from Wigan to Liverpool but had a damned pacer today coming back. We are spoiled with the quality of our train fleet in Scotland.
 

507021

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Had my first trip on a TPE 350 this weekend heading from Edinburgh to Wigan NW. I wasn't that impressed. I found them to be quite claustrophobic inside with no plugs or wifi. There wasn't a trolley service either. This was an 8-car 350 and upon leaving Edinburgh I couldn't see many spare seats.

I agree fully. I travelled to Scotland recently on a Class 350 and I have to say for the length of the journey I think the lack of a trolley service is very poor

I'll have to remember next time I head up that way to pack some sandwiches as my partner and I were both very hungry when we arrived in Glasgow!
 

Haydn1971

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Preparation is everything, whilst the trolley service is nice, I've nearly always used the mini shops at the station I depart from for food and drink - topping up only if desperate from the trolley. I overheard a discussion a few weeks back re the trolley service needing to turn over just £30 an hour to make it worthwhile - that's half a dozen sales of a hot drink and a chocolate bar, so no real excuse for not having one.
 

ainsworth74

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I found them to be quite claustrophobic inside with no plugs or wifi.

To be fair no TPE services have WiFI (though I would imagine that will change at some point during the next franchise). Do they not have sockets at tables like 185s?
 

swt_passenger

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Does new construction/major rebuilding have to conform to the TSIs? I thought they wanted 400-metre platforms (i.e. two ICE/TGV sets coupled). Are we exempt?

There are separate requirements for conventional rail (CR) and proper high speed rail (HS) - (such as HS2 as defined by the TSI).

Extract from CR INF TSI
4.2.10.1. USABLE LENGTH OF PLATFORMS
All TSI Categories of Line
(1) The platform length shall be sufficient to accommodate the longest interoperable train intended to stop at the platform in normal service. When determining the length of trains intended to stop at the platform, consideration shall be given to both the current service requirements and the reasonably foreseeable service requirements at least ten years following the bringing into service of the platform.
(2) It is permissible to build only the length of platform required for the current service requirement provided passive provision is made for the reasonably foreseeable future service requirements.
(3) The usable length of a platform shall be declared in the Register of Infrastructure.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Infrastructure/Guidance Notes/GIGN7616 Iss 2.pdf
 
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Jonfun

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Preparation is everything, whilst the trolley service is nice, I've nearly always used the mini shops at the station I depart from for food and drink - topping up only if desperate from the trolley. I overheard a discussion a few weeks back re the trolley service needing to turn over just £30 an hour to make it worthwhile - that's half a dozen sales of a hot drink and a chocolate bar, so no real excuse for not having one.

Achieving an average of £30 an hour is optimistic. Possible on busy services, less so at other times. That said, I can't speak for TPE's Scotland services as I don't travel on them enough.
It's also likely to be the point at which the service is profitable rather than merely worthwhile - there are various added benefits of having more staff on board which are harder to put a value on, such as doing customer servicey duties, being able to provide a more attractive First Class offer in having catering etc.
 

driver9000

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Had my first trip on a TPE 350 this weekend heading from Edinburgh to Wigan NW. I wasn't that impressed. I found them to be quite claustrophobic inside with no plugs or wifi. There wasn't a trolley service either. This was an 8-car 350 and upon leaving Edinburgh I couldn't see many spare seats.

Returned today on a Pendolino, much nicer IMHO.

As an aside, The northern 319 was good from Wigan to Liverpool but had a damned pacer today coming back. We are spoiled with the quality of our train fleet in Scotland.

Was there definitely no trolley? On the 8 trains they tend to stay at one of the catering, bays usually coach C, instead of walking through as the trolley is unsuitable for the inter unit gangways. Every table seat has a plug .
 
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Bletchleyite

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Was there definitely no trolley? On the 8 trains they tend to stay at one of the catering, bays usually coach C, instead of walking through as the trolley is unsuitable for the inter unit gangways.

What a silly design flaw, given that TOCs are forever going on that passengers prefer at-seat service to what sounds like a makeshift buffet counter. If you're going to do that you might as well have a proper buffet counter!

I hope when this is the case they make announcements.
 

darloscott

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What a silly design flaw, given that TOCs are forever going on that passengers prefer at-seat service to what sounds like a makeshift buffet counter. If you're going to do that you might as well have a proper buffet counter!

I hope when this is the case they make announcements.

Would it not then be logical to have two trolleys, one for each unit?
 

driver9000

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That would be another, but more costly, option. Why can the trolleys not go through the gangway connection - are they too wide? I thought they were extra-narrow ones.

They're aircraft trollies which the water urn etc goes on top of and I believe it was discovered that there is a risk of them toppling over in the inter unit gangways which is different to the in unit gangways.
 

Bletchleyite

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They're aircraft trollies which the water urn etc goes on top of and I believe it was discovered that there is a risk of them toppling over in the inter unit gangways which is different to the in unit gangways.

Oops. Rather a design flaw (of the trolley) I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of interest why did the poster who said that think 350s feel claustrophobic? I find them quite spacious with nice large windows, generous luggage racks etc. Though the seat spacing on the airline seats in the centre section is a little tight.
 

swt_passenger

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They're aircraft trollies which the water urn etc goes on top of and I believe it was discovered that there is a risk of them toppling over in the inter unit gangways which is different to the in unit gangways.

Yet SWT happily run trolleys the length of 12.450s and 10.444s, presumably with the same toppling risk at the inter unit gangways, but they cope OK.

So what it presumably comes down to is First being more risk averse.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yet SWT happily run trolleys the length of 12.450s and 10.444s, presumably with the same toppling risk at the inter unit gangways, but they cope OK.

So what it presumably comes down to is First being more risk averse.

Or possibly a different, more top-heavy design of trolley? I think most I've seen have the urn low down in the trolley, and the water must be pumped up to the tap. Now the other poster mentioned it, I do recall TPE's have the urn on top. TPE's trolleys also seem very narrow compared with some others and are thus at higher risk of toppling.
 

Philip C

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Or possibly a different, more top-heavy design of trolley? I think most I've seen have the urn low down in the trolley, and the water must be pumped up to the tap. Now the other poster mentioned it, I do recall TPE's have the urn on top. TPE's trolleys also seem very narrow compared with some others and are thus at higher risk of toppling.

The last time I travelled from Carlisle to Piccadilly they had this one cracked. The chap on the trolley was most apologetic that he had run out of water and sandwiches and had been unable to replenish supplies at Waverley. As I was rather thirsty I refused the offer of biscuits, of which he seemed to have an endless supply. He was doing his best in a difficult situation and doing it most politely and, at least, his trolley wasn't top heavy.
 

marcouk2

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The last time I travelled from Carlisle to Piccadilly they had this one cracked. The chap on the trolley was most apologetic that he had run out of water and sandwiches and had been unable to replenish supplies at Waverley. As I was rather thirsty I refused the offer of biscuits, of which he seemed to have an endless supply. He was doing his best in a difficult situation and doing it most politely and, at least, his trolley wasn't top heavy.

Back in March when I travelled in first class on a rear unit of 2x 350 the guard got the catering host to bring drinks down to us from the front first class section who had to take drinks orders and then carry them the length of the train balancing the cups in his hands, he was not impressed about being unable to bring his trolley down!
 

Philip C

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Back in March when I travelled in first class on a rear unit of 2x 350 the guard got the catering host to bring drinks down to us from the front first class section who had to take drinks orders and then carry them the length of the train balancing the cups in his hands, he was not impressed about being unable to bring his trolley down!

What a lovely story. I really do think that the efforts that many TPE staff make, to look after their passengers on the Scottish services (in particular), is up there with the best.
 

marcouk2

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What a lovely story. I really do think that the efforts that many TPE staff make, to look after their passengers on the Scottish services (in particular), is up there with the best.
Especially given that it was on a weekend! I wasn't expecting any foodat all for my weekend first and ended up with a snack box, water and a hot drink.
 

hibtastic

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Oops. Rather a design flaw (of the trolley) I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of interest why did the poster who said that think 350s feel claustrophobic? I find them quite spacious with nice large windows, generous luggage racks etc. Though the seat spacing on the airline seats in the centre section is a little tight.

Yeah I was in an airline seat in a packed train so no sockets, it didn't feel that spacious and I didn't see any trollies and no announcements were made about when to go to get refreshments. It was just a bog standard journey to me - nothing special about it really.
 

driver9000

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Yet SWT happily run trolleys the length of 12.450s and 10.444s, presumably with the same toppling risk at the inter unit gangways, but they cope OK.

So what it presumably comes down to is First being more risk averse.

I assume SWT uses the more traditional standard pull along catering trolley? The trolley used on the 350/4 is a small cube shaped trolley found on aircraft and even have turbulence instructions on them. These for into catering bay on the 350/4 which as far as I'm aware is unique within the Desiro fleets. The usual trolley as used on the 185 and by other TOCs is rarely, if ever used on the 350.
 

Jonfun

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Back in March when I travelled in first class on a rear unit of 2x 350 the guard got the catering host to bring drinks down to us from the front first class section who had to take drinks orders and then carry them the length of the train balancing the cups in his hands, he was not impressed about being unable to bring his trolley down!

That doesn't sound particularly safe. Hot water being "balanced" on a train with the trampoline-a-like ride quality of a 350 is a recipe for disaster.

Surely a more sensible alternative given they use flasks rather than urns would be to carry the sealed flask down the train and make the drinks in the other portion?
 
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