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TPE altering dates on outbound portion of SOR.

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4SRKT

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I'm on the 6:37 Hull > Piccadilly with an SOR from Saltaire to Manchester. The grip has just amended the valid until date from 25th Nov to 21st Nov. I asked him why he had done this and he said because I was travelling today. I asked him what I was supposed to do if doing BOJ at Huddersfield or Stalybridge with the intention to resume tomorrow, and he answered that he 'has been told to fill them in like that'.

Naughty naughty.
 
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yorkie

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I would ask him to confirm that your ticket remains valid for overnight break of journey and that you can resume it until the expiry date printed (originally!) on the ticket.

If he disagrees, then clearly TPE Customer Services need to be contacted.
 

John @ home

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It is very common for staff examining tickets on-train to write the date of inspection on the ticket. This does not alter the duration of the ticket's validity.
 

bb21

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Did he just write the date on the ticket or did he actually endorse it with the words "valid until" and cross out the old date? My point is the same as the one John @ Home has made above - if he simply wrote the new date on your ticket, it means nothing other than that you have used at least part of the ticket today.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I'm on the 6:37 Hull > Piccadilly with an SOR from Saltaire to Manchester. The grip has just amended the valid until date from 25th Nov to 21st Nov. I asked him why he had done this and he said because I was travelling today. I asked him what I was supposed to do if doing BOJ at Huddersfield or Stalybridge with the intention to resume tomorrow, and he answered that he 'has been told to fill them in like that'.

Naughty naughty.

Did you want to break your journey en route? Did you have any intention to do so? If so then the easiest thing would have been to draw this fact to the attention of the inspector. If not, then I don't particularly see the issue.

Whilst people on this forum seem to live in some sort of dreamland where the passenger can do no wrong and the nasty train company is always wrong in everything it does, in my experience probably about 1% or less of the people using SOR tickets wish to break their journey this way, but a very large majority will use whatever means they have to find a way to use the SOR as some sort of season ticket.

Whilst I personally wouldn't endorse the ticket in the way you describe, unless you do plan to break your journey then I don't see a problem.
 

yorkie

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In my experience, stating that you wish to break your journey has made no difference to how the ticket is marked, which isn't surprising as the rail industry doesn't appear to have any requirement to state that.

As it made no difference when I stated that, I don't bother any more.
 

island

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I think it's more a case of trying to discourage people from using the outbound leg of an SOR multiple times. I suppose FTPE has been experiencing problems in the area.
 

alastair

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Whilst people on this forum seem to live in some sort of dreamland where the passenger can do no wrong and the nasty train company is always wrong in everything it does, in my experience probably about 1% or less of the people using SOR tickets wish to break their journey this way, but a very large majority will use whatever means they have to find a way to use the SOR as some sort of season ticket.

Whilst I personally wouldn't endorse the ticket in the way you describe, unless you do plan to break your journey then I don't see a problem.

Sorry,but I really think you are out of order here.

You are seriously suggesting that "a very large majority" i.e. considerably more than 60% (?) of people on your train will try to fraudulently re-use an already used ticket. Whilst I am sure it happens,I simply cannot believe it is on anything like that scale.

Or have I misunderstood your post?
 

4SRKT

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Did you want to break your journey en route? Did you have any intention to do so? If so then the easiest thing would have been to draw this fact to the attention of the inspector. If not, then I don't particularly see the issue.

Whilst people on this forum seem to live in some sort of dreamland where the passenger can do no wrong and the nasty train company is always wrong in everything it does, in my experience probably about 1% or less of the people using SOR tickets wish to break their journey this way, but a very large majority will use whatever means they have to find a way to use the SOR as some sort of season ticket.

Whilst I personally wouldn't endorse the ticket in the way you describe, unless you do plan to break your journey then I don't see a problem.

Why should I state up front that intend to break my journey? It would never cross my mind, and the first I knew was he had crossed out 25/11 and written 21/11 instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just one example: details of the most recent time the ticket was inserted in a barrier will be encoded on the ticket. A suspicious ticket inspector can read the magnetic stripe and make inferences.

In this case, a ticket ftom Saltaire to Manchester will not pass through any barrier.
 

pemma

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Why should I state up front that intend to break my journey? It would never cross my mind, and the first I knew was he had crossed out 25/11 and written 21/11 instead.

There isn't any requirement for you to inform a ticket inspector that you wish to break your journey. Some people on here recommend that if you are doing an overnight break that you ask the ticket inspector to endorse it for a break in journey. Did you ask for that to be done after the conversation you had with him about changing the date?

I've noticed some Northern guards circling the valid to date with a biro. I've never shown one that's done that a ticket that isn't a day return or an advance single so I don't know if said guards would do the same.

In this case, a ticket fom Saltaire to Manchester will not pass through any barrier.

A break at Leeds or Huddersfield may result in it being inserted in to a barrier.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whilst people on this forum seem to live in some sort of dreamland where the passenger can do no wrong and the nasty train company is always wrong in everything it does, in my experience probably about 1% or less of the people using SOR tickets wish to break their journey this way, but a very large majority will use whatever means they have to find a way to use the SOR as some sort of season ticket.

If you do ANYTHING to the ticket - punch a hole in it or scribble on it then it means it can no longer be used for the complete journey again. You don't need to change the 'valid to' date to stop that from happening. Changing the 'valid to' date could mean the monkey RPIs in Manchester could threaten the 1% of passengers making a genuine break in journey with prosecution for using an invalid ticket.
 
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4SRKT

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There isn't any requirement for you to inform a ticket inspector that you wish to break your journey. Some people on here recommend that if you are doing an overnight break that you ask the ticket inspector to endorse it for a break in journey. Did you ask for that to be done after the conversation you had with him about changing the date?

I've noticed some Northern guards circling the valid to date with a biro. I've never shown one that's done that a ticket that isn't a day return or an advance single so I don't know if said guards would do the same.



A break at Leeds or Huddersfield may result in it being inserted in to a barrier.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you do ANYTHING to the ticket - punch a hole in it or scribble on it then it means it can no longer be used for the complete journey again. You don't need to change the 'valid to' date to stop that from happening. Changing the 'valid to' date could mean the monkey RPIs in Manchester could threaten the 1% of passengers making a genuine break in journey with prosecution for using an invalid ticket.
Indeed. If the destination wasn't Manchester this might be less of an issue.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Sorry,but I really think you are out of order here.

You are seriously suggesting that "a very large majority" i.e. considerably more than 60% (?) of people on your train will try to fraudulently re-use an already used ticket. Whilst I am sure it happens,I simply cannot believe it is on anything like that scale.

Or have I misunderstood your post?


Ok, I take back the "very large majority" and replace with "a large number, in comparison to those who genuinely wish to break their journey overnight in this way".
 

4SRKT

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Ok, I take back the "very large majority" and replace with "a large number, in comparison to those who genuinely wish to break their journey overnight in this way".

It makes no difference. if the rules are that overnight BOJ is permiited (which it is) no ticket should EVER be endorsed in this way except between the last station and the ticket's destination. To do otherwise is de facto an *automatic* assumption that the passenger is a cheat.

Whatever, I'll be e-mailing the offending ticket to TPE customer services tomorrow.
 

theblackwatch

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Perhaps if TOC's were genuinely concerned by this, they would provide crews with grippers which could be altered on each leg of a journey indicate which part of the journey they have been 'gripped' on. For example, the ticket could be endorsed with a 'grip' saying HUD-MAN on it.
 

WelshBluebird

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To those suggesting that you must inform staff that you wish to break your journey, what about cases where you do not know you are going to break your journey until after the guard has marked your ticket? Its just lunacy to suggest you must do that.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Perhaps if TOC's were genuinely concerned by this, they would provide crews with grippers which could be altered on each leg of a journey indicate which part of the journey they have been 'gripped' on. For example, the ticket could be endorsed with a 'grip' saying HUD-MAN on it.

Perhaps combined with a full ticket check after every station call? Or maybe they should alter the stamper for every ticket as they go through asking if and where any breaks are being made....oh wait.....

To those suggesting that you must inform staff that you wish to break your journey, what about cases where you do not know you are going to break your journey until after the guard has marked your ticket? Its just lunacy to suggest you must do that.

Thinking in the grand scheme of things, as a percentage. how many passengers do you think break their journey? How many of those are overnight breaks? How many do not know where they are breaking their journey? I don't know the figures, but I'd be willing to bet it's quite a small percentage, so whilst it's not an invalid point, in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big issue.

Perhaps the guard could mark the ticket ”used on [service]“ and tell the passenger to find them before/when getting off for the guard to add ”...to [station]“? Or does that place too much emphasis on the passenger helping themselves? Or perhaps the guard will be swamped with endorsement requests at every stop?
 

IanXC

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Perhaps combined with a full ticket check after every station call? Or maybe they should alter the stamper for every ticket as they go through asking if and where any breaks are being made....oh wait.....

Indeed! While there probably is a case for increasing the use of ziffa stamps, I think this is generally a solution looking for a problem. I regularly travel a particular journey which can be done as 2 legs as 3 or even 4 for various reasons and its never been a problem.

I think staff deserve more credit here, its clear to me that the various marks used by, particularly different TOCs, provide a lot of information which staff use to interpret how a ticket has been used. Local journey opportunities will also be informative.

(The OP's validity being removed being a different matter though!)
 

Tracky

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I too would be interested in seeing the ticket. I'm not sure how he can 'alter' it...

I would add, if you are making the full journey, why does it matter?

I have noticed re-use of SOR's (and SVR return parts) on a number of commuter routes where the passenger is unlikely to break a journey. If I suspect a passenger may try to re-use I stamp, and write the station codes for the section travelled. Our new Ziffa's date and hole the tickets.

When I do this, I note the reaction of the passenger.
 

4SRKT

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Here it is. Sorry it's a B&W image but I'm at work and don't know how to use the scanner properly....:oops:
 

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4SRKT

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I too would be interested in seeing the ticket. I'm not sure how he can 'alter' it...

I would add, if you are making the full journey, why does it matter?

I have noticed re-use of SOR's (and SVR return parts) on a number of commuter routes where the passenger is unlikely to break a journey. If I suspect a passenger may try to re-use I stamp, and write the station codes for the section travelled. Our new Ziffa's date and hole the tickets.

When I do this, I note the reaction of the passenger.

The notion 'why does it matter?' is inappropriate. Unless the guard knows *for certain* (i.e. has asked or been told) that the passenger is making a full journey then no ticket should be altered in this way. This is akin to saying doing something wrong only matters if you get caught. Your gripping technique makes sense in this context I think.

I don't dispute that SOR validity and potential abuse is an issue, but we cannot have one-grip- or one-TOC-wars against it if that means invalidating even KWVR45's 1% of legitimate users. Rules are rules however absurd they may seem (and I have never understood personally why the outward portion of an SOR should be valid for 5 days), and TOCs come down hard on pax who break their part of the bargain, so they are beholden to obey them themselves.
 
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IanD

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Did anyone stop you breaking your journey or question you when you resumed it? If they did then I would complain. If they didn't then what's the problem?

Anyone could have written that on the ticket. It's not signed, initialled or anything so why would anyone think it overrides the printed information?
 

sheff1

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Anyone could have written that on the ticket. It's not signed, initialled or anything so why would anyone think it overrides the printed information?

Have you encountered the G4S clowns at Manchester ?
 

4SRKT

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Have you encountered the G4S clowns at Manchester ?

Or any passengers who are not either staff or forum members, i.e. most of them? Which is the point of this entire thread. I didn't break my journey, nor did I want to. I regarded what the guard did as wrong so challenged him with a theoretical question to which he had no good answer other than 'only obeying orders'.

How many passengers unfamiliar with the arcane rules of ticketing would have been aware that this change did not invalidate the ticket? It certainly looks as though it does. If an employee of the railway writes something on a ticket, most people will assume it is correct procedure. And this is the point, not that some pernickity nuisance forum member has spotted something dubious.

And as for the trite remark that 'anyone could have written that on the ticket', can I use that reasoning to reuse any ticket in future whose only grip mark is in biro, e.g. anything by Northern? "No Mr Northern Rail guard, it was me who circled that date, not one of your colleagues three weeks ago". No, of course I can't say that, so it can't be one rule for the TOCs/grips/RPIs and another rule for passengers.
 
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Tracky

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Thank you for showing the ticket.

The date on the ticket has not been altered. The ticket has been endorsed with the date on which you were on the train. True there is a line through the "valid until" date but it is still visible and it may just be an underline crossing the date by luck. I don't like it when guards use a biro anyway as it means very little - If you are going to biro a ticket it really needs date, headcode and location information on to be of value.

Personally I would like TOCs to issue all revenue staff with Ziffas which date and hole punch the tickets. I would also like tickets to be taken out of circulation by staff or barriers at major stations.
 

Romilly

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I would also like tickets to be taken out of circulation by staff or barriers at major stations.

But that would be a major inconvenience for passengers who need their used tickets for claiming expenses or compensation for delay.
 
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