TPE Class 185 doors

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by John B, 9 Oct 2019.

  1. John B

    John B Member

    Messages:
    18
    Joined:
    20 Aug 2018
    Is there a known problem with the doors on the 185s. Yesterday I caught a 185 in Leeds and attempted to alight at Batley. The doors only opened a couple of inches and had to be forced open by a boarding passenger. Admittedly I don't travel often on this type but recall last year when I was travelling on a Hull bound 185, a passenger wished to alight at an intermediate station and was literally taken to the following station because the doors failed to open.
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,150
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Yes, this does seem to be a Desiro thing, though it seems to happen more on TPE than on LNR where I don't think I've seen it even at the steeply canted fast line at Berko.
     
  4. daveshah

    daveshah Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    1 Sep 2018
    Definitely one of the Desiro's few weaknesses; I've noticed the doors on the 444s struggling at Brockenhurst which also has a bit of a cant.
     
  5. MalaiseForever

    MalaiseForever Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    7 Jan 2019
    Location:
    CRE/MCR/LDS
    Yeah it happens on 185s. Nothing a firm shove and some elbow grease can’t sort in experience.
     
  6. gimmea50anyday

    gimmea50anyday Established Member

    Messages:
    2,637
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2013
    Location:
    Back Cab
    A steel toe to the bottom runners usually works! XD
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,150
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Good old percussive maintenance - still works a treat on modern high-tech kit! :)
     
  8. xc170

    xc170 Member

    Messages:
    463
    Joined:
    28 Jan 2016
    Strange considering the rather brutal noise the doors on a desiro make as they close...
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,150
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    It seems to relate to how they operate, being fairly "brute force" air powered, the piston actually has to do a lot of work to pull them outwards (most force will be back towards the bodyside but the pull needed is outwards), but then they slide easily after that.

    On closing they are moving quickly enough by that point that they slam heavily (which seems classically to be favoured by German rolling stock builders, hence why it sometimes gets called the "Teutonic slam" on here :) ).

    They're a bit like the Class 153/155 door in concept, relying more on brute force than on a clever mechanism. They do seem generally reliable, though, you rarely see one out of use on a 350.
     
  10. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

    Messages:
    1,481
    Joined:
    30 May 2018
    Location:
    Sheffield
  11. gimmea50anyday

    gimmea50anyday Established Member

    Messages:
    2,637
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2013
    Location:
    Back Cab
    185108 blew an engine on 1P17. Being discussed on another thread. There's also a fatality at Newark and trespassers at Hatfield. The ECML is totally shafted today
     
  12. pompeyfan

    pompeyfan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,517
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2012
    I think the fault being reported by the OP is more commonly found on 450s, I’ve never seen the same fault on a 444.

    it’ll open slightly then the air will stop building but will slide on the runner with not a huge amount of effort, if it’s being used as a local door the guard might lose their head!

    the 444s struggle with cambers, Witley, Rowlands and Ashurst are particularly bad.
     
  13. 37057

    37057 Member

    Messages:
    176
    Joined:
    3 Jul 2009
    The common ones tend to be...

    Upper swing arms (door drive - top of the leafs) have bearings that are open to the weather and overtime can corrode and cause the doors to 'stall' when unplugging (only movement in said bearings).
    Lower swing arms (lower section of leaf - the guide rail is visible from within the car) have nylon rollers attached to bearings which become loose / adrift. This often causes the doors to struggle to close.
    Door control units are behind the panel containing the open / close push buttons - if left open during a down pour can suffer from water ingress and damage the control unit.
    Microswitches can develop faults from time to time. Door close detection microswitches can cause brake applications, egress/access device microswitches can fail to reset etc etc.

    When you deal with broken trains every working day it can be difficult to gauge their reliability but I think considering how intensively they used and the quantity of them they don't do too badly. Double leaf plug doors by nature aren't going to be the simplest type around either but the winner characteristic is the reduced dwell time at stations.
     
  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,150
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Could the typically worse weather across the Pennines compared to the south WCML be a contributing factor to TPE suffering that specific problem more often, perhaps?

    The Class 444 issue may be that the doors are larger and therefore heavier due to being a single leaf almost as wide as the double leaves on other Desiros?
     
  15. 37057

    37057 Member

    Messages:
    176
    Joined:
    3 Jul 2009
    The 350/4s tend to be less prone to these issues but that could be because they're only a few years old and the duty cycle is probably not as intensive on the Scottish routes.

    I can't comment about the characteristics of other fleets but it's always a possibility that some depots are better (or not) at keeping 'on top' of various issues on fleet wide scales. There are many factors, priorities etc after all. TOC - Maintainer relationships all differ too.
     
  16. gimmea50anyday

    gimmea50anyday Established Member

    Messages:
    2,637
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2013
    Location:
    Back Cab
    I know the DCUs well! They are in the roof above the doors on a 185 and I have had 2 different DCU burnouts during very wet weather despite the short timeframes the doors were open. Once causing a fire alarm in York station during the evening peak, the other bringing my train to a stand across the station throat at Manchester Piccadilly. Both causing a job stop in the process although fortunately for just a few minutes!
     
  17. 37057

    37057 Member

    Messages:
    176
    Joined:
    3 Jul 2009
    Not quite, they're literally behind the open / close push buttons. The cab DCUs are in the ceiling behind a hinged panel above the TMS display if you ever fancy a look at one!
     
  18. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    I believe the door closing force on 185's is quite high, the RAIB found this while investigating a 'trap and drag' a few years ago, although I don't think they referred to it as a teutonic slam!
     
  19. tpjm

    tpjm Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2019
    Location:
    The North
    Contrary to some replies in this thread, please can I stress the correct way to open a “stuck” door on a Desiro unit.

    As has already been pointed out, the doors are failing to open due to the doors not “popping” out from the body enough to enable them to slide open. Customers naturally presume that pulling the doors open (I.e. pulling to the side) will open the doors, however, often this doesn’t work as they are actually pulling them back into the body shell, as well as sideways. Sometimes customers manage to open the doors by following this method, but they exert so much force that they risk the door bouncing back and hitting them once they are properly opened. There was even an incident last year where a Hull service had a door that came off it’s runner, due to a customer kicking the door.

    The correct technique is simple and fool-proof:
    When alighting, push outwards on the surface to the right of the window on the left hand door.

    This works every time and is less likely to damage a customer or the train.
     
  20. Randomer

    Randomer Member

    Messages:
    152
    Joined:
    31 Jul 2017
    Had an interesting one yesterday when the conductor on a TPE service announced that they would be unable to pass through the train due to the cab door lock failing*. I can appreciate this in not wanting to leave the back cab insecure but using the words "stuck in the rear cab currently so can't pass through the train" caused much amusement amongst passengers.

    * I always thought they were a simple carriage key lock but appreciate people will not want to comment either way here for obvious reasons.
     
  21. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Not that I think it'll happen but this reads like it could be added as an official notice onto the doors!
     
  22. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

    Messages:
    2,570
    Joined:
    8 Jul 2017
    Location:
    Glossop
    With the stations being on a curve, the pistons are not only having to push the doors open, but fight against gravity too. They just need a little helping hand sometimes. It happens at Slaithwaite a lot.
     
  23. pompeyfan

    pompeyfan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,517
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2012
    as I mentioned earlier, there appears to be two separate issues.

    1st issue is that the door doesn’t push out far enough due to combination of weight and track camber, this seems to be more common on 444s in my experience

    2nd issue is the door will open to about half a meter wide and then all air will drain off the door, if you push the door along the runner there is very little resistance. If this door is used as a local door, when all the other doors are closed, and you flick the key, the door shuts with lots of ferocity (similar to a cab door) rather than the gradual manner it should do. I’m hoping some Desiro guards that frequent this forum can either back me up or expand on what I’m saying.
     
  24. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    4,261
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    The 444 door is wider and heavier so that makes sense...
     
  25. 185

    185 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,688
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2010
    Some seem to have a mind of their own, when you key off to shut them as a local door, 95% are painfully slow, the other 5% are like Arkwright's till & SLAM! - does keep you on your toes somewhat.
     
  26. pompeyfan

    pompeyfan Established Member

    Messages:
    2,517
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2012
    Especially if you’re leaning out to do your 5th signal check or train safety check and you nearly lose your head!
     
  27. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Established Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    Joined:
    19 Jan 2016
    Quite, A very smple, "Push here if door is stuck" written on a big hand, would surely help everyone. That is if customers manually interveneing in the operation of the train has now become the official TOC policy.
     
  28. 37057

    37057 Member

    Messages:
    176
    Joined:
    3 Jul 2009
    Or just report door issues so they can get fixed.
     
  29. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,315
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    Indeed it's something I noticed at Batley (like the OP) last summer when 185s first became the regular traction calling here.

    The cant of the track has the train leaning away from the platform, so the mechanism has to work harder. Doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to, but the loaned 170s never had this problem at all.
     
  30. tpjm

    tpjm Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2019
    Location:
    The North
    Batley, Slaithwaite, Mossley and Garforth are just some of the difficult locations.

    When the Cl 185 started getting used on these routes, we saw the issues more frequently. I've been told since that the hydraulics have been give a bit more oomph so it, thankfully, now happens less.

    I doubt there will ever be a sticker on the door as if someone had an accident pushing the door outwards, i.e. following an instructional label, the TOC would be liable, as even if they didn't follow the instruction, it could always be argued that the instruction was unclear, etc.
     
  31. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    It was more that the language used sounded official.
    I can't ever see a TOC admitting to the existence of a fault via a notice... unlike a staff toilet (non railway) I came across with a proper printed notice on the cistern lid
     

Share This Page