TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

[pemma]

The guard shouldn't have to collect any fares, all passengers should have a ticket before boarding because all stations should have sufficient facilities for them to do so.

Then I woke up........

TPE will start serving smaller stations like Marsden and Greenfield where it probably won't be viable to do anything other than install a single TVM.

The guard could always be given an assistant to help with revenue duties - on some TPE services that is already the case.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE will start serving smaller stations like Marsden and Greenfield where it probably won't be viable to do anything other than install a single TVM.

The guard could always be given an assistant to help with revenue duties - on some TPE services that is already the case.

Greenfield has a ticket office now, doesn't It? Not sure what the opening hours are though.

 

[Bungle965]

Greenfield has a ticket office now, doesn't It? Not sure what the opening hours are though.

Monday - Friday 06:50 - 14:25
Saturday 07:45 - 15:20
Sunday Closed
Sam

 

[absolutelymilk]

TPE will start serving smaller stations like Marsden and Greenfield where it probably won't be viable to do anything other than install a single TVM.

The guard could always be given an assistant to help with revenue duties - on some TPE services that is already the case.

Why/when will these smaller stations start being served?

 

[pemma]

Why/when will these smaller stations start being served?

Originally scheduled date was this December, but it now looks like it'll be May 2018, by which time there should be some loco-hauled sets in service and the loaning of 185s to Northern will have ended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Because a higher frequency skip-stop service is replacing the old stopper and express.

Personally I think it is utter madness.

 

[Starmill]

We already knew there would be more Northern services from Barrow-in-Furness and Windermere to Manchester Airport, but they won't be as fast or 'fancy' as the TransPennine services. In much the same way that most of the current Preston to Manchester passengers seem to target the TransPennine services even though there's more space on the trains from Blackpool North.

 

[WatcherZero]

class 88s could be also an option if the TPE network were to be completely wired.

TPE apparently have a agreement with the Dft that they can replace some 68 with 88 during the franchise if it doesn't cost substantially more but they aren't allowed to use any loco other than 68/88.

 

[james2trains]

Why? Because a higher frequency skip-stop service is replacing the old stopper and express.

Personally I think it is utter madness.

So are there going to be less express trains if some are stopping at more stations (in addition to the stopper replacement)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are there going to be less express trains if some are stopping at more stations (in addition to the stopper replacement)?

There will be more TPEs but in return they will mostly/all have one or two extra stops.

 

[Starmill]

There will be 4 true ''Express" trains between Manchester and Leeds, and by that I mean one intermediate call. There are currently only 3. There will be 2 "semi-fast" trains which will have lots of local calls. They will do the job currently done by two "semi-fast" services with Stalybridge and Dewsbury calls, and the 1 "stopping" service.

There may be track capacity for one further service following electrification and/or infrastructure improvements. The current setup of running pacers and sprinters on all stations services is a comprehensive waste of everyone's time.

 

[pemma]

There will be 4 true ''Express" trains between Manchester and Leeds, and by that I mean one intermediate call. There are currently only 3.

Not quite. While it was originally the intention for the Manchester-York services to only call at Huddersfield and Leeds, the TPE franchise agreement indicates TPE will provide 3tph at Dewsbury.

 

[Philip]

Are all the trains required to stop at Huddersfield? If not then perhaps one of the Newcastle services could run non-stop between Manchester and Leeds. It would reduce overcrowding on the train itself.

 

[pemma]

Are all the trains required to stop at Huddersfield? If not then perhaps one of the Newcastle services could run non-stop between Manchester and Leeds. It would reduce overcrowding on the train itself.

Yes all the services are required to stop at Huddersfield.

Victoria-York will be every 15 minutes so one service missing out Huddersfield would mean something like York departures from Huddersfield would be xx:00, xx:30 and xx:45 which would then reverse an improvement that was made when the additional Airport-York was introduced.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are all the trains required to stop at Huddersfield? If not then perhaps one of the Newcastle services could run non-stop between Manchester and Leeds. It would reduce overcrowding on the train itself.

Huddersfield is also the recommended interchange point for Airport passengers, as it's a guaranteed (almost) same-platform change. This is one of the reasons it now has a first-class lounge.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

What a pity the ticket booking systems dont recognise this common sense connection point!

Think the CIS codes for manchester needs to be changed too. Piccadilly shoukd be MCP not MAN to bring it in line with MCO and MCV, otherwise when people are using booking systems when they start typing in Manchester on a keyboard the system automatically defaults to MAN creating unneceasary connections and changes.

 

[FQTV]

What a pity the ticket booking systems dont recognise this common sense connection point.

Mouth the my from taken you've words right.

Which is the way that journey planners and ticketing systems would probably offer it....

 

[Chester1]

I would have liked First to have ordered an extra 397 and taken up the ITT optional extra of extending a Manchester Airport service to Crewe. I would have thought that Crewe-Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly-Oxford Road would attract sufficient people changing at Crewe and also Wilmslow commuters to be worth it. Obviously they decided that the revanue wouldnt cover the leasing and opperating costs of one extra 397 or 2 extra 185s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mouth the my from taken you've words right.

Which is the way that journey planners and ticketing systems would probably offer it....

I was under the impression that booking systems DID in fact prioritise Huddersfield for interchange for journeys such as Newcastle to Manchester Airport. I'm surprised it isn't, certainly.

 

[notlob.divad]

I would have liked First to have ordered an extra 397 and taken up the ITT optional extra of extending a Manchester Airport service to Crewe. I would have thought that Crewe-Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly-Oxford Road would attract sufficient people changing at Crewe and also Wilmslow commuters to be worth it. Obviously they decided that the revanue wouldnt cover the leasing and opperating costs of one extra 397 or 2 extra 185s.

I was under the impression that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport Northern stopping service, will be extended through to Crewe using a 319. Why duplicate the service with TPE?

The more 'logical' extension would be something from the South extending beyond Crewe to Manchester Airport, to give direct services from the West Midlands.

 

[glbotu]

I was under the impression that booking systems DID in fact prioritise Huddersfield for interchange for journeys such as Newcastle to Manchester Airport. I'm surprised it isn't, certainly.

Newcastle - Manchester Airport almost always gives you a connection at York. It's usually tight-ish (about 5 - 7 mins), which is fine if the train's on time or only a couple down, but any actual disruption and you're waiting an extra half hour (or so).

 

[rebmcr]

I would have liked First to have ordered an extra 397 and taken up the ITT optional extra of extending a Manchester Airport service to Crewe. I would have thought that Crewe-Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly-Oxford Road would attract sufficient people changing at Crewe and also Wilmslow commuters to be worth it. Obviously they decided that the revanue wouldnt cover the leasing and opperating costs of one extra 397 or 2 extra 185s.

Don't Northern already run that route? There's nothing particularly Transpennine about it other than going via the airport.

 

[pemma]

Newcastle - Manchester Airport almost always gives you a connection at York. It's usually tight-ish (about 5 - 7 mins), which is fine if the train's on time or only a couple down, but any actual disruption and you're waiting an extra half hour (or so).

But what if your journey is Hull to the Airport or perhaps from a non-TPE service to a TPE service?

 

[Chester1]

I was under the impression that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport Northern stopping service, will be extended through to Crewe using a 319. Why duplicate the service with TPE?

The more 'logical' extension would be something from the South extending beyond Crewe to Manchester Airport, to give direct services from the West Midlands.

Don't Northern already run that route? There's nothing particularly Transpennine about it other than going via the airport.

The current and planned Northern services are stoppers. The ITT option was for an express service and dependant on leaving sufficient paths for Northern stoppers. CrossCountry tried a service from the Midlands and it was a total failure. The reason for doing it would be for extra capacity into Manchester and extra revanue. Obviously First decided its not worth the cost of leasing and oppeating an extra 397 or 2 x 185. Its a shame because it would mean that VT could reduce the number of stops it makes to switch local passengers from their services to TPE (I say that as a regular Stockport-Crewe traveller who would be disadvantaged by my suggestion).

 

[pemma]

CrossCountry tried a service from the Midlands and it was a total failure.

The service from the Midlands was a Central Trains service from Nottingham via Derby, which terminated at Manchester Airport and it was a stopping service until it reached Crewe. Like most longer Central services at the time it was frequently late and turned around early. That ended around 15 years ago when around 18 million people used Manchester Airport annually, now 25.5 million people use the Airport annually.

Its a shame because it would mean that VT could reduce the number of stops it makes to switch local passengers from their services to TPE (I say that as a regular Stockport-Crewe traveller who would be disadvantaged by my suggestion).

How? TPE wouldn't run a Warrington to Crewe service so VT would still need to run a service stopping at both.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't Northern already run that route? There's nothing particularly Transpennine about it other than going via the airport.

There's nothing particularly Transpennine about Newcastle-Edinburgh either, but it is set to become a major TPE route.
I'm very doubtful about devoting resources up there when it already has 3tph VTEC/XC.

 

[Chester1]

How? TPE wouldn't run a Warrington to Crewe service so VT would still need to run a service stopping at both.

I was refering to London to Crewe to Manchester VT services. Crewe is used as a interchange for VT services and removing the stop would free up a great deal of seats on the Crewe to London section. Wilmslow couldnt be cut without an uproar but Stockport doesnt need 3tph to London (and I am a resident)! Liverpool and Glasgow to London services are pretty full but there is still spare capacity on the Chester and North Wales services. It seems a waste to have VT services used for local journeys, especially when there is a straight forward new express service option for Wilmslow and Crewe to Manchester via the Airport.

There's nothing particularly Transpennine about Newcastle-Edinburgh either, but it is set to become a major TPE route.
I'm very doubtful about devoting resources up there when it already has 3tph VTEC/XC.

There will also be Firsts open access service from 2021. I wouldn't be surprised if ECML services were out competed and VTEC asked to have their franchise commitments reduced to 1tph + peak extras between Newcastle and Edinburgh. First will be able to give them a huge challenge between TPE and its current and future ECML open access services. Bit off topic though....

 

[Bletchleyite]

First's open access service is aimed at attracting passengers off flights - if it's *really* successful there will be plenty of passengers to go around.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was refering to London to Crewe to Manchester VT services. Crewe is used as a interchange for VT services and removing the stop would free up a great deal of seats on the Crewe to London section. Wilmslow couldnt be cut without an uproar but Stockport doesnt need 3tph to London (and I am a resident)! Liverpool and Glasgow to London services are pretty full but there is still spare capacity on the Chester and North Wales services. It seems a waste to have VT services used for local journeys, especially when there is a straight forward new express service option for Wilmslow and Crewe to Manchester via the Airport.

I do not think any service between Wilmslow and Manchester via the Airport could be described as "express", when a reversal is required at the Airport. Currently the VTWC service takes 16 minutes from Piccadilly to Wilmslow, with a stop at Stockport. Many of the TPE services take longer than that just from the Airport to Piccadilly non-stop.

 

[Chester1]

I do not think any service between Wilmslow and Manchester via the Airport could be described as "express", when a reversal is required at the Airport. Currently the VTWC service takes 16 minutes from Piccadilly to Wilmslow, with a stop at Stockport. Many of the TPE services take longer than that just from the Airport to Piccadilly non-stop.

Manchester to Wilmslow is 22 minutes and then 16 minutes to Crewe. ATW takes 45 minutes. The latter speed could be matched by a 397 travelling via Manchester Airport. Assuming matching a 350, being a minute faster than a 323 and same speed as a 390 the times would be 14, 8 and 16 minutes, leaving 7 minutes to stop and reverse at the airport. An extra 31 minutes each way could be provided by one extra 397.