TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

[childwallblues]

It was Nova 3 Mk5A stock, not a 397.

There are pictures on another website of 57301 dragging set TP02.

 

[MDB1images]

Can't remember where we got up to pre lockdown but 397008 & 397009 are in traffic after being in use as trainers.
The issues mentioned up thread about the warm/cold air in the 472xxx and 474xxx (PTS cars) seems to have been sorted on later upgrades as not noticed a vehicle that's needed a manual vent from the cab for a long while.

 

[Mordac]

How many are accepted, then?

 

[43096]

How many are accepted, then?

All of them, as I understand it.

 

[Mordac]

All of them, as I understand it.

Oh, I didn't realize it was that far along. Presumably it's only driver training then which will be holding back full use of them once the normal timetable returns?

 

[MDB1images]

397010 has also worked in passenger traffic.
Just 397001 and 397012 left to work a passenger train now.

 

[djpontrack]

Just 397001 and 397012 left to work a passenger train now.

I agree with that statement MDB1images. I’m out on 397’s most days when I’m working and they are the only two I’ve not had.

 

[bengley]

Oh, I didn't realize it was that far along. Presumably it's only driver training then which will be holding back full use of them once the normal timetable returns?

Everyone is trained bar one or two drivers. There are enough people to run the whole service using 397s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Everyone is trained bar one or two drivers. There are enough people to run the whole service using 397s.

Including Liverpool-Glasgow?

 

[InOban]

Now that they're in regular use, what do the traincrew think of them?

 

[Jamesrob637]

All of them, as I understand it.

About time with the 350s gone (when timetables ramp up again)

 

[bengley]

Including Liverpool-Glasgow?

Yes because everyone at Preston signs them and only Preston crews work to Liverpool

 

[bengley]

Now that they're in regular use, what do the traincrew think of them?

There are a lot of issues which need rectifying to make them perfect, but I am so much happier driving them than I was 350s. 350s were too cramped in the cab and quite underpowered imo.

397s have a few issues with cab door seals not sealing properly and causing quite loud wind noise in the cab above 80mph and AWS bells being too loud. Also a lack of speed set makes it necessary to move the power controller quite a lot to maintain linespeed which can get quite tiring after 3 and a half hours in the seat.

But they're good - I enjoy working them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a lot of issues which need rectifying to make them perfect, but I am so much happier driving them than I was 350s. 350s were too cramped in the cab and quite underpowered imo.

Interesting you say 350s are underpowered - the south WCML ones take off like the proverbial off a shovel - the acceleration has nearly knocked me flying before. Did TPE throttle them or something?

 

[bengley]

Interesting you say 350s are underpowered - the south WCML ones take off like the proverbial off a shovel - the acceleration has nearly knocked me flying before. Did TPE throttle them or something?

They get up to 50mph very quickly but 50-110 is really slow and they lose speed up Shap and Beattock.

397s on the other hand, accelerate extremely quickly up to about 70 and continue to be very quick up to 110.

A 397 will be doing 110 here after leaving Lockerbie

A 350 would be a good mile or two later.

 

[Jamesrob637]

They get up to 50mph very quickly but 50-110 is really slow and they lose speed up Shap and Beattock.

397s on the other hand, accelerate extremely quickly up to about 70 and continue to be very quick up to 110.

A 397 will be doing 110 here after leaving Lockerbie

A 350 would be a good mile or two later.

I didn't go in a 397 up Shap and Beattock yet as my recent direct was caped in Preston and Avanti did the honours from there to bonny Scotland

 

[Bletchleyite]

They get up to 50mph very quickly but 50-110 is really slow and they lose speed up Shap and Beattock.

397s on the other hand, accelerate extremely quickly up to about 70 and continue to be very quick up to 110.

A 397 will be doing 110 here after leaving Lockerbie

A 350 would be a good mile or two later.

Ah, fair enough. I suppose that's what you get when you use a suburban EMU (designed to "take off" quickly on a local stopping service) for an InterCity route. At least that's resolved now, then.

 

[MDB1images]

Now that they're in regular use, what do the traincrew think of them?

From a Guards point of view I'd agree with Bengley that they are much better to work that what we had but also agree some bits need ironing out long term.

Main gripe from the Guards is In the rear cab you have no control of the cab temperature and the air con really blasts out.
If you manually close the vents the whistle it makes as the air hits the plastic is loud.
A simple system of each individual cab having temperature control and the ability to turn it off would go down well(I'm sure that will happen further down the line).
Other than some other bits and pieces they are generally being well received.

In terms of general passenger feedback I'd say they have gone down very well(particularly as the heating issues in the PTS cars seem to have been upgraded on earlier arrivals).
Lots of luggage space and a bright airy feel have been commented on along with much better toilets and more room.

Like any new trains we've had the odd failure but with more crew experience of the trains they are now getting worked out quicker with the 'I've had that before and we did x,y,z' word of mouth coming into play.

Of the riding experience in the saloon that people on this forum have commented on, I'm not sure how much of it is new train dampners or the track or a bit of all!
They ride better than a 185 and 350 but not as good as a 390(for me the Pendo does ride very well so a high bar), the newer ones don't seem to ride as smooth if sat over the bogies but I've not noticed it much on(for example)397003 which has done a fair bit of passenger work now.

Things going in the right direction!

 

[lammergeier]

There are a lot of issues which need rectifying to make them perfect, but I am so much happier driving them than I was 350s. 350s were too cramped in the cab and quite underpowered imo.

397s have a few issues with cab door seals not sealing properly and causing quite loud wind noise in the cab above 80mph and AWS bells being too loud. Also a lack of speed set makes it necessary to move the power controller quite a lot to maintain linespeed which can get quite tiring after 3 and a half hours in the seat.

But they're good - I enjoy working them.

I can't understand why new stock seems to be fitted with ridiculously loud AWS - there were similar complaints from Northern drivers with their new stock. It's actually distracting and counterproductive having something so egerious in the cab yet we hear regularly on here and elsewhere complaints from drivers asking for it to be toned down.

Had a Voyager the other day which had the modified LED style sunflower and a much quieter sounder and it was bliss in comparison.

 

[Erniescooper]

It mystifies me as well because it's TPWS 4 and the sounds levels are set by the TOC with the help of the union and the speech unit is programmed to their request by Unipart Rail.

 

[43096]

I can't understand why new stock seems to be fitted with ridiculously loud AWS - there were similar complaints from Northern drivers with their new stock. It's actually distracting and counterproductive having something so egerious in the cab yet we hear regularly on here and elsewhere complaints from drivers asking for it to be toned down.

Had a Voyager the other day which had the modified LED style sunflower and a much quieter sounder and it was bliss in comparison.

Isn’t the whole point of the AWS sound to be “distracting” i.e. it draws attention to an adverse signal.

 

[37057]

Isn’t the whole point of the AWS sound to be “distracting” i.e. it draws attention to an adverse signal.

And also if it's that bad there's incentive to react quicker!

I tend to cover the speaker when 'keying in' to units anyway. Same when testing the DSD/GSMR function on preps...

 

[bengley]

Isn’t the whole point of the AWS sound to be “distracting” i.e. it draws attention to an adverse signal.

Yes, but in the case of the new CAF stock (on both Northern and TPE) the bell, which draws your attention to a green signal (not important) is far louder than the horn (important). A few drivers have indeed missed the horn because it's so quiet and is drowned out by the loud wind noise on some units, which of course causes an emergency brake application

 

[43096]

Yes, but in the case of the new CAF stock (on both Northern and TPE) the bell, which draws your attention to a green signal (not important) is far louder than the horn (important). A few drivers have indeed missed the horn because it's so quiet and is drowned out by the loud wind noise on some units, which of course causes an emergency brake application

Oh you are joking. Who specified the bell to be louder - that is just totally cretinous.

As for the wind noise, that’ll be down to the infamous CAF build quality.

 

[lammergeier]

Not

Isn’t the whole point of the AWS sound to be “distracting” i.e. it draws attention to an adverse signal.

Not if the "ping" at a green is so absurdly loud it becomes a distraction in itself. If anyone can't hear the bell from the quieter sounders being retro fitted to Voyagers (and HST's) then they shouldn't be driving and will most probably fail their medical on hearing grounds.

I understand it has been acknowledged by some clever folk that the "ping" is more noticable and piercing than the horn and can be softened without compromising safety. That's why it's disappointing to hear of yet more stock being introduced with issues surrounding the bell.

 

[bengley]

Oh you are joking. Who specified the bell to be louder - that is just totally cretinous.

As for the wind noise, that’ll be down to the infamous CAF build quality.

To be fair to CAF, on 010 which was the last one I worked, the wind noise was non existent. I think it's also the newest in service so they're obviously working on it.

The bell is still extremely loud though, as is the vigilance. I'm sure before long it will be sorted.

 

[InOban]

Portable decibel meters are available if you need to collect evidence, since I assume that under social distancing, you can't have a second person such as a union rep in the cab with you.

 

[tpjm]

Portable decibel meters are available if you need to collect evidence, since I assume that under social distancing, you can't have a second person such as a union rep in the cab with you.

Why would they need to collect “evidence” and what makes you think a union rep has some kind of special skill set to be able to determine decibels?

People who work in the fleet and projects teams introducing these trains are human too and feedback from crew is taken into genuine consideration without the need for external pressure.

There are so many work streams being progressed to improve the Nova fleets as a direct result of feedback from front-line colleagues but as ever, there are processes to follow with the different manufacturers.

 

[InOban]

I'm glad to hear that staff feedback is being acted on. BTW I recall complaints about the ride and noisy suspension. Has this been improved?

 

[tpjm]

I'm glad to hear that staff feedback is being acted on. BTW I recall complaints about the ride and noisy suspension. Has this been improved?

The ride quality is similar between the 195/331/397 and Mk5a coaches. There’s an element of “bedding in” which was noted with the coaches and I think someone has referenced above. Going forward I’d expect to see some exploration of improving the smoothness of the suspension but that will be after the more “job-stopping” issues are ironed out.