TPE Class 397

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by absolutelymilk, 4 Apr 2017.

  1. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    There doesn't seem to be a separate thread for the 397s so I thought I would start one. For background, these are 125mph five-car intercity trains being built for TPE by CAF.

    Does anyone know when construction will start and when is the planned date for service introduction? All I can find is that they will be fully in service by 2019.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2017
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  3. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The lease of the trains is due to start on the 2nd October 2018, and the TPE franchise agreement states that their 350s will go off lease between 11 November 2018 and 30 April 2019, which gives a very clear window of introduction for the 397s. Presumably there'll be a period of type testing under CAF prior to this, before the sets are accepted by TPE.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2017
  4. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Brilliant, thanks for the info. Is the lease agreement online somewhere?
     
  5. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    They won't exceed 110mph of course, unless they find themselves on the ECML north of York for some reason.
     
  6. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Once the TPE wiring is done (if it ever is!) it wouldn't surprise me to see them occasionally running Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds providing that crew route & traction knowledge allows it. Either as a way of avoiding disruption on the North WCML or even a semi-regular positioning move.
     
  7. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    Tony Miles claimed in First's West Coast bid they had proposed using non-tilting CAF built trains on Birmingham to Scotland services at speeds of up to 115mph, so it could be that would apply to Manchester Airport/Liverpool to Scotland services as well.
     
  8. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    The TPE franchise agreement includes an option for ordering 7 to 22 additional EMUs in 5, 6 or 8 car formations to enter service in 2022. However, a mixture of formations for the additional trains isn't permitted so 12 additional 5 car 397s and 10 x 8 car 397s wouldn't be allowed but 22 additional 5 car 397s would be!
     
  9. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    There was a notion doing the rounds at one time that the standard European performance certification for classic EMUs would be 190kph (=118mph).
    So it was thought NR would round this down to 115mph and Bob's your uncle.
    But I don't think it's as simple as that in the UK.
    Somebody will have to do a business/safety case for it, and I doubt NR would be happy to simply change the lineside signs on WCML North, where the curvature is the usually the limiting factor, without a lot of thought/persuasion/cash.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2017
  10. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    There has also been talk of work being done on the WCML to allow tilting trains to travel at up to 135mph, which could in turn raise speeds for non-tilting trains but I don't know if that work is likely to go ahead.
     
  11. BMIFlyer

    BMIFlyer Member

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    Construction of the first train started 3 weeks ago.
     
  12. 507021

    507021 Established Member

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    That does seem a bit odd, but I think six car 397s would be the way to go once Trans-Pennine electrification is completed.
     
  13. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Thanks, do you know if there are any news reports about this? I would like to add it to Wikipedia if possible.
     
  14. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    I am actually slightly concerned that they haven't ordered enough of these to cover the current diagrams. There will be two more units but they will need to cover presumably two Liverpool to Glasgow diagrams? The only reason the current set-up works is because some 185s take on their work on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Presumably we will still see 6 car 185s after the 397s arrive? I'm also concerned about the services that run as 8-car which are sometimes full and standing between Manchester and Preston. How will they cope with a 5 car train?
     
  15. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    I'm guessing that the reduced distance between Manchester and Preston once electrification is complete will mean that they will need less stock to complete the diagrams. Not to mention there will (hopefully!) be better acceleration/less maintenance with the new stock.
     
  16. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Hmm, a non-stop train from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road via Wigan North Western currently takes 35 minutes. Can this really be reduced by running via Bolton, even after the sections of speed increase? The fastest service I can see at the minute is the 1920 from Manchester Oxford Road which as 3 intermediate calls at Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley, taking 40 minutes. Perhaps it can go down to 32 or 31 minutes but is it realistic for the journey time to decrease more than that?

    Timing the services at 110mph will only gain a minute here and a minute there between Preston and Edinburgh / Glasgow.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2017
  17. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    There will be increased capacity on Northern services between Manchester and Bolton / Preston once electrification is completed and the 397s have one more coach than the 350s so there will be more options for using advanced ticketing to spread out passengers. The Liverpool to Glasgow service will only run 3 times a day so can be done with 2 units. Presumably with the units doing a return and a one way service per day with a staff change over so they finish close to home.

    Once Manchester to Leeds electrification is complete it would make sense to order more 397s to run some Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh services or more Liverpool-Glasgow services. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mark Vs say diesel hauled.

    What is the current plan for the loco hauled and 802s? Which services are they being introduced on and which are they then running on? Was the plan changed recently or was it just a rumour?
     
  18. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Once the new TPE fleets are delivered, it would make sense for any "Friday rush" capacity boosts to be made using the 80x bi-mode sets rather than 185s, as these can use the AC. That's assuming there wouldn't be any gauging issues, of course.
     
  19. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Using a very rough estimate on Google Maps, I make it about 42 miles via Wigan and 32 via Bolton. Maybe someone else knows the exact distance?
     
  20. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Using rail miles I get
    30.73 Victoria to Preston via Bolton,
    32.7 via Atherton,
    35.2 via Westhoughton and
    37 miles via Chat Moss.

    (Manchester Piccadilly add 1 more mile to Victoria distance for any destination, I used Victoria rather than Piccadilly as starting point as easier to control Rail Miles output)

    Via Chat Moss it would be limited to a maximum of 100 till WCML then 110
    Via Bolton it would be limited to a maximum of 100 all the way

    So after electrification and speed upgrades Bolton would probably be faster by uto 5 min bearing in mind traffic and having to pass through more stations though the service wont be timed for the maximum possible speed. However if they ever sorted the Chatmoss/WCML junction to be more than a long snails crawl it would probably be about equal again.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2017
  21. thealexweb

    thealexweb Member

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    A Class 185 calling only at Bolton can run Manchester to Preston in 29 minutes. This is before EMU acceleration, 100mph running, etc are taken in to account.
     
  22. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    I did think about that. There may be significant advantage in having each cleared by both routes. But there may be a few issues with crew...
     
  23. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if the 397s were extended to 6 or 8 carriages in future to cope with passenger numbers on Manchester-Scotland. With ICWC capacity remaining static until HS2 opens, TPE will need to bear the burden of additional northern WCML passengers. Additional units would be required if the Liverpool-Glasgow services prove to be a success and more of them are run as a result.
     
  24. BMIFlyer

    BMIFlyer Member

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    For info,

    The TPE future fleet plans per route are as follows:

    Class 185:
    Man Air to Cleethorpes (double sets Man-Sheffield)
    Man Picc to Hull (double sets)
    Man Picc to Leeds/Selby skip stop (single sets but potential to double)


    Loco hauled MK5's:
    Man Air to Middlesbrough
    Liverpool to Scarborough


    Class 397:
    Man Air - Preston - Glasgow
    Liverpool - Wigan - Glasgow
    (These trains should combine / separate at Preston)

    Man Air - Preston - Edinburgh


    Class 802:
    Man Air - Leeds - Newcastle
    Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh



    As for the news report regarding 397 construction, expect to see it in RAIL shortly.

    No plans to shift 397's to cross the Pennines so unsure as to where that has come from - platform end talk / forum babble?

    As per unit orders there's a chance in the future from say 2020 that TPE could run an hourly service all day to Scotland via Preston and would therefore require more 397's.

    Regarding capacity, Northern are to introduce more services to Man Air from Lancaster to pick up the pax that currently swamp the TPE services after the pax arrive from the Barrow terminators.
     
    Last edited: 5 Apr 2017
  25. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    It's 90 max via Chat Moss (75 before Astley).
    Although 100 is going to appear on the Bolton route, I don't think it will be throughout.
    Paths and stopping patterns will hold timings back via Bolton.
    Some Scotland trains will still go via Golborne.
    Attach/detach 397s at Preston won't help overall timings, either.
     
  26. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Thanks.

    The origin of talk about the potential of extra 397s being built for ECML services is that they are the only trains that TPE obtained a follow on order option for. This would indicate that they plan to deal with any lack of capacity through ordering them or retaining extra 185s and not ordering extra Mark Vs or 802s.
     
  27. simon7929

    simon7929 Member

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    class 88s could be also an option if the TPE network were to be completely wired.
     
  28. Bornin1980s

    Bornin1980s Member

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    Okay, when 185s run in multiple, how does the guard collect all the fares? Might it be an idea to add a gangway connection to just one end, like on the tp 124s of old?
     
  29. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Even with them running in 3 car formations, the loadings often mean the guards cannot get down the unit to complete ticket checks. Adding gangways would help a bit on doubled up sets, but you'd have to do it for both ends as the 185s get turned around a lot so from service to service you never really know which end will be facing forwards when they run.
     
  30. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Besides, I don't know how easy it would be to provide an after-market gangway that meets crash regulations, even if it only has to meet the standards for the period that the units were delivered.

    The reason I'd expect the 397s to maybe run North TransPennine services is that they'll presumably be standard C3 loading gauge... though the core will already be cleared for SET sets anyway, of course.
     
  31. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    The guard shouldn't have to collect any fares, all passengers should have a ticket before boarding because all stations should have sufficient facilities for them to do so.

    Then I woke up........
     

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