TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

[td97]

Excellent shots, as always!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those look even better than the LHCS - massive windows - sort of like a “Class 344” might have done.

 

[jayiscupid]

Who needs Railcolournews when we have our own local correspondent?

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Amazing! Thanks Tam.

 

[sprinterguy]

Such incredible looking trains!

They are impressive looking things particularly when it's considered that they're destined for a route that I still recall as being served infrequently, by a handful of seconded 158s and a small number of elderly (albeit comfortable) loco hauled rakes. Manchester - Scotland has seen quite the improvement in its fortunes over the course of the last twenty years, to the extent that it appears now to be a victim of its own success in terms of passenger demand. Never would have envisaged a few years ago it being served by it's own purpose built fleet of brand new inter-regional electric trains.

 

[whhistle]

Who needs Railcolournews when we have our own local correspondent?

Just to say, I fully appreciate your position in the world and the time you give to upload photos.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I just hope they eventually have their carriages increased. Other than that they look fantastic.

 

[sprinterguy]

I just hope they eventually have their carriages increased. Other than that they look fantastic.

I do wonder about their ability to cope with the loads currently catered for by 8-car 350 formations. Other than that, I imagine that they'll be a great step up from the 350s that currently ply the route, which were themselves a step up from the 185s that preceded them.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I do wonder about their ability to cope with the loads currently catered for by 8-car 350 formations. Other than that, I imagine that they'll be a great step up from the 350s that currently ply the route, which were themselves a step up from the 185s that preceded them.

Remember that an 8-car 350 set is 162m while a 5-car 397 will be 118m, without the loss of seats due to cabs, so not as big a reduction as it seems. If needed, peak time trains could always miss out Oxford Road as they do currently and run doubled up.

 

[sprinterguy]

Remember that an 8-car 350 set is 162m while a 5-car 397 will be 118m, without the loss of seats due to cabs, so not as big a reduction as it seems. If needed, peak time trains could always miss out Oxford Road as they do currently and run doubled up.

They can't run doubled up on Manchester services, the platforms aren't long enough at Manchester Airport to take a 10-car set.

A total reduction in capacity from 686 (38 first, 374 standard, 274 standing) with an 8-car class 350, to 442 (24 first, 262 standard, 156 standing) with a 5-car class 397 is significant on the busiest workings.

 

[absolutelymilk]

They can't run doubled up on Manchester services, the platforms aren't long enough at Manchester Airport to take a 10-car set.

Talking medium term (5-10 years) here, the platforms could be extended if those trains were getting full again. I think this has been discussed before and I don't remember anyone saying it couldn't be done (although me not remembering doesn't mean they didn't!)

A total reduction in capacity from 686 (38 first, 374 standard, 274 standing) with an 8-car class 350, to 442 (24 first, 262 standard, 156 standing) with a 5-car class 397 is significant on the busiest workings.

Sure, just not as big a reduction as it might seem to others (and myself before I looked it up)

 

[TBSchenker]

There are 8 daily diagrams (4 Glasgow and 4 Edinburgh) for the 350s. With a fleet of 10.

There are 12 397s ordered. The new Liverpool - Glasgow service can easily be one extra diagram early morning, dinner time and late evening.

That leaves 3 397s. Say 1 on heavy maintenence, 1 on light maintenence available for use if required, and 1 extra. Clever diagramming could result in attaching and detaching a unit at Preston, running between Edinburgh and Preston as 10-cars.

The Liverpool unit can also attach to a Glasgow service at Preston and run to Glasgow as 10-cars.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Clever diagramming could result in attaching and detaching a unit at Preston, running between Edinburgh and Preston as 10-cars.

The busiest parts of the journey are Manchester to Preston though. Hopefully more Northern trains on this route will relieve this somewhat, but I doubt it would to the extent that this part is less busy than Preston to Glasgow (certainly north of Lancaster).

 

[sprinterguy]

The busiest parts of the journey are Manchester to Preston though. Hopefully more Northern trains on this route will relieve this somewhat, but I doubt it would to the extent that this part is less busy than Preston to Glasgow (certainly north of Lancaster).

Indeed: It's the Preston - Manchester section where the capacity is needed most (Though not to say that the trains aren't busy north of there) and where the main constraint lies.

Talking medium term (5-10 years) here, the platforms could be extended if those trains were getting full again. I think this has been discussed before and I don't remember anyone saying it couldn't be done (although me not remembering doesn't mean they didn't!)

I'm sceptical of any major infrastructure improvements of the type needed to increase platform lengths at Manchester Airport being made with any sort of alacrity, and it's the case that the 8-car trains are busy right now, not in ten years time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I just hope they eventually have their carriages increased. Other than that they look fantastic.

Indeed, the set looks disproportionately short in the first photo uploaded by @Tam (much appreciated by the way), but doesn't seem to in any of the other pics from any source, so it's probably just a trick of the light/angle/zoom/combination of those.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I'm sceptical of any major infrastructure improvements of the type needed to increase platform lengths at Manchester Airport being made with any sort of alacrity, and it's the case that the 8-car trains are busy right now, not in ten years time.

I would hope (possibly slightly naively) that planning has already started for this - IMO better to have ten cars on peak trains and five otherwise than to run six cars on all services.

 

[InOban]

The data within Route utilisation studies shows that these trains, like the VTWC trains from Birmingham, are generally quite lightly loaded north of Preston. So alternative services need to be provided at the South end, and ticketing restrictions used to discourage passengers from using InterCity trains for commuting. Good luck with that (see Reading!)

 

[AndrewE]

The data within Route utilisation studies shows that these trains, like the VTWC trains from Birmingham, are generally quite lightly loaded north of Preston.

In that case there is something wrong with the data! It certainly doesn't tally with my experience, apart from the last Pendolino from Edinburgh to Brum one evening. Maybe you mean only 80% loaded rather than 110%?

So alternative services need to be provided at the South end, and ticketing restrictions used to discourage passengers from using InterCity trains for commuting. Good luck with that (see Reading!)

The problem "at the south end" is that the VTWC services provide the only northbound Scottish option for everyone boarding from Watford to Crewe - and all those connecting in - as the main Euston-Glasgow service is first stop Warrington northbound, and vv. Extra services are needed at the North end too.

 

[rebmcr]

Can the 397s be rescued by 68s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed: It's the Preston - Manchester section where the capacity is needed most (Though not to say that the trains aren't busy north of there) and where the main constraint lies.

A sensible world would put u/s in the timetable so it can’t be used for those journeys and put on a train formed of 8.319 just behind it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The data within Route utilisation studies shows that these trains, like the VTWC trains from Birmingham, are generally quite lightly loaded north of Preston. So alternative services need to be provided at the South end, and ticketing restrictions used to discourage passengers from using InterCity trains for commuting. Good luck with that (see Reading!)

u/s would be easier. People would be directed away from it to a suitable extent by it not appearing on planners and the PIS.

 

[driver9000]

Can the 397s be rescued by 68s?

They can be rescued by anything carrying the appropriate adaptor coupler. The TPE 68s retain the conventional buffers and draw gear and the mk5A stock has buffers and draw gear at the outer ends.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are purchase options in the CAF contract for more and longer 397s, if needed.
There are very few 8-car 350 workings, they are mostly single units.
It's also not just TPE's problem to solve overcrowding between Manchester and Preston.
Northern will have fast services (one day) on new stock via Wigan to Cumbria, as well as via Bolton to Blackpool.

 

[sprinterguy]

There are very few 8-car 350 workings, they are mostly single units.

Very much so, but those that I have experienced as double units have needed that capacity: For the majority of services it won't be an issue and as I said previously the 397s will be a great step up, I'm just wondering how they'll cope on those handful of really busy services.

 

[Islandexpress]

Standing room only on a pendolino between Carlisle and Edinburgh, and Edinburgh - Lancaster return last Friday. Would hate to see a busy train!

The data within Route utilisation studies shows that these trains, like the VTWC trains from Birmingham, are generally quite lightly loaded north of Preston. So alternative services need to be provided at the South end, and ticketing restrictions used to discourage passengers from using InterCity trains for commuting. Good luck with that (see Reading!)

 

[absolutelymilk]

Standing room only on a pendolino between Carlisle and Edinburgh, and Edinburgh - Lancaster return last Friday. Would hate to see a busy train!

Were the previous trains cancelled/were these ones delayed? Also I presume they would have been even more busy on the southern section....

 

[Mollman]

There are purchase options in the CAF contract for more and longer 397s, if needed.
There are very few 8-car 350 workings, they are mostly single units.

I seem to recall that there were more 6-car working when it was 185s. I think ordering 6 coach units would have been better, however it may be that with Liverpool portions detaching / attaching at Preston 12-car was too long north of there.

 

[Iskra]

I seem to recall that there were more 6-car working when it was 185s. I think ordering 6 coach units would have been better, however it may be that with Liverpool portions detaching / attaching at Preston 12-car was too long north of there.

11 Car pendolino’s fit fine so I’d expect 2x 6 car 350 with their shorter carriages would fit.

 

[InOban]

The RUS's are now sufficiently old that they are buried within the archive section of the NR site! Certainly I know that the Edinburgh services, both from Birmingham and Manchester, are busier than the Glasgow ones. The extension to London, giving through services to such as Coventry and rugby, has proved popular. And of course posters here tend to travel on the same trains as everyone else....

 

[sprinterguy]

11 Car pendolino’s fit fine so I’d expect 2x 6 car 350 with their shorter carriages would fit.

But nobody's even contemplating 6-car 350s. The discussion is regarding 397s, and whether they should have been 6-car rather than 5.

 

[Starmill]

There was significant 8/6 car 350/185 (respectively) working at weekends in the old timetable. It was almost all Edinburgh services on Fridays and Sundays if I remember correctly. I don't have a clue about the new timetable. The 8 car that used to do the 1800 from Manchester Airport would often be full and standing.