• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE franchise awarded to First

Status
Not open for further replies.

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,116
Location
Macclesfield
Well BR introducing 75mph 150s on regional services and later introducing 90mph 158s and cascading the 150s to local services isn't really all that different to TPE introducing 350s and planning to replace them with new longer, faster Intercity style trains.
I know, I was agreeing with you on that one.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
There is still going to be the unnelectrified branches to Hull, Scarbrough and Middlesbrough, with only Hull possibly scheduled for electrification within CP6 so a new bi-mode fleet will still be needed for transpennine north unless some or all of those branches are electrified in late CP6/early CP7.

Given the next TPE franchise will operate occasional services via Calder Vale, Warrington Central and Wakefield for route knowledge purposes and will likely use those routes on Sundays and overnight when engineering works are undertaken, there's more than just Hull/Scarborough/Middlesbrough to consider when talking about North TPE going from a bi-mode fleet to an electric fleet.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
Plus, do you realise that the number of carriages operated by TPE will have more than doubled compared to what was operating twenty years previously?


Do you work for the government ? Because that's a meaningless unquantified statement, the TPE network will be hugely different in 2020 to what it was when Northern Spirit was running it.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Do you work for the government ? Because that's a meaningless unquantified statement, the TPE network will be hugely different in 2020 to what it was when Northern Spirit was running it.

Indeed. The next TPE franchise will be running hourly services to Edinburgh on the ECML and at least hourly to Scotland on the WCML. In NS/ATN days Virgin* and GNER ran all the Scottish services between them.

* Virgin West Coast and Virgin CrossCountry.
 

ScotTrains

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2014
Messages
382
Location
Scotland
Will this include a decent catering service point and not the reliance on a lukewarm trolley that cannot be topped up with water? Or is that too sensible?

I really hope it does include a decent catering service/ kitchen. The current catering service is absolutely pathetic!! Last year I traveled 1st from Manchester airport to Glasgow leaving at 1700. On over a 3hr journey all I received was two small cups of tea and a packet of pretzels. They did have sandwiches and crisps on board but I had to pay extra for these even though I was traveling 1st!

Yesterday I booked a Glasgow to Manchester 1st ticket but made sure I went with Virgin even though it involves a change of train. This way I get lounge access at departure and arrival stations, complementary dinner, alcohol and soft drinks, WiFi, plus nicer trains (no standard class either side nonsense). For the same price I just can't understand why anyone would choose tpe over Virgin. Tpe really need to up their game regarding catering etc if they want to compete with Virgin on these long distance Scottish routes.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,116
Location
Macclesfield
the TPE network will be hugely different in 2020 to what it was when Northern Spirit was running it.
Yes, with a much higher frequency of longer trains than was the case at the turn of the millennium. I'm not sure how anyone can perceive that as anything other than a good news story.

Even if you discount the North West - Scotland services (and I wasn't because that misses out how stretched the 185 fleet was before the 350s were introduced), the number of carriages operating on TPE services has gone from strength to strength at every step since privatisation. Assuming that the hourly Edinburgh extension of a Newcastle service ties up 4 units at any one time (1.5 hour journey time plus layover), or an extra twenty carriages, then in 2019 you still end up with more carriages covering core North/South Transpennine services than at present. And that's before you consider that TPE will no longer be responsible for the North West services out of their fleet.
 
Last edited:

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,241
I really hope it does include a decent catering service/ kitchen. The current catering service is absolutely pathetic!! Last year I traveled 1st from Manchester airport to Glasgow leaving at 1700. On over a 3hr journey all I received was two small cups of tea and a packet of pretzels. They did have sandwiches and crisps on board but I had to pay extra for these even though I was traveling 1st!

Yesterday I booked a Glasgow to Manchester 1st ticket but made sure I went with Virgin even though it involves a change of train. This way I get lounge access at departure and arrival stations, complementary dinner, alcohol and soft drinks, WiFi, plus nicer trains (no standard class either side nonsense). For the same price I just can't understand why anyone would choose tpe over Virgin. Tpe really need to up their game regarding catering etc if they want to compete with Virgin on these long distance Scottish routes.

For crying out loud, give them a chance. Were the 350s seen as a long-term solution when it came to rolling stock for this route? No, of course not. They are a stop-gap, acquired to free up the 185s for the job they were actually built for, working across the Pennines. In neither case was Siemens' design team being asked to produce an intercity train with catering facilities suited to long-distance work.

A stop-gap solution was needed because electric trains were able to operate ahead of the franchise renewal. DfT could just as well have opted to put the North West-Scotland services into a redrawn West Coast franchise, rather than leave them with TPE. Rolling stock that looks like it will be a great deal more suited to Anglo-Scottish work is now on order for TPE, so you might even get a free sandwich but bear in mind that GWR's first class complimentary offer is different from Virgin so I doubt TPE will be replicating what virgin do in all aspects anyway.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
Yes, with a much higher frequency of longer trains than was the case at the turn of the millennium. I'm not sure how anyone can perceive that as anything other than a good news story.


Well we don't really know if it's good news yet, the five car trains could be 20m carriages with larger first class sections - but I'm hopeful of 26m carriages with more space for us mere plebs. Your statement was straight from the DfT text book of hyperbole, in that yes, TPE are getting lots of new trains, but the number and frequencies are expanding, whilst some Class 185 are being packaged up to go elsewhere - so I'll hold off waving the victory flags just yet, because by the time we get the new units, I'm expecting passenger growth to have outstripped the capacity gains delivered.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Even if you discount the North West - Scotland services (and I wasn't because that misses out how stretched the 185 fleet was before the 350s were introduced), the number of carriages operating on TPE services has gone from strength to strength at every step since privatisation.

Depends how you class 'TPE'. Replacing 5 x 170s with 6 x 156s is more capacity. However, due to the 75mph top speed of the 156s they couldn't directly replace the 170s so doubled up 156s replaced 185s on Blackpool services and 3 car 185s replaced 4 car 170s on both North and South TPE and a 3 car 185 working was replaced by a 2 car 170 working.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
20,054
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Well we don't really know if it's good news yet, the five car trains could be 20m carriages with larger first class sections - but I'm hopeful of 26m carriages with more space for us mere plebs. Your statement was straight from the DfT text book of hyperbole, in that yes, TPE are getting lots of new trains, but the number and frequencies are expanding, whilst some Class 185 are being packaged up to go elsewhere - so I'll hold off waving the victory flags just yet, because by the time we get the new units, I'm expecting passenger growth to have outstripped the capacity gains delivered.

26m trains would require gauge-clearance work on all the TPE routes except on the ECML where it will already have been done for VTEC.
And TPE has to deliver the premium demanded by DfT, so there's a limit to their largesse on rolling stock.
The current proposals seem pretty generous to me.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
26m trains would require gauge-clearance work on all the TPE routes except on the ECML where it will already have been done for VTEC.
And TPE has to deliver the premium demanded by DfT, so there's a limit to their largesse on rolling stock.
The current proposals seem pretty generous to me.

First Group must think their on demand entertainment service will return a profit, considering it's been tried and tested on Great Western services and First are going to introduce it on all their TPE services.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,491
26m trains would require gauge-clearance work on all the TPE routes except on the ECML where it will already have been done for VTEC.
And TPE has to deliver the premium demanded by DfT, so there's a limit to their largesse on rolling stock.
The current proposals seem pretty generous to me.

Given that currently NR track design standards are based on 26m (Mark 5 coaches), I would expect that any renewals should take this onboard which will reduce the amount of work required. Also it only comes into play at bends and then only those tighter than a certain radius. As such, although much was made of it during the IEP contact discussions, it's not that much of an issue.

You also need to remember that a 390 has 25m plus end coaches meaning that most places they can go trains with 26m coaches are likely to be able to go too. That then includes the WCML. That means that there probably not much else to do to clear a few routes.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
According to todays RAIL TPE are going to keep all 185's and use them on South TPE releasing the 170's. There will be platform lengthenings for them and at Northern where the four car 333 will be released and replaced with 3/6 car formations.
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Messages
3,455
According to todays RAIL TPE are going to keep all 185's and use them on South TPE releasing the 170's. There will be platform lengthenings for them and at Northern where the four car 333 will be released and replaced with 3/6 car formations.

Presumably what it actually means by that is that 185's will be taken away from the Transferred North West TPX services to replace the 170's.

Of course the info given so far doesn't add up to TPE keeping all the 185's long term once the Italian:lol: built AT300's arrive
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
20,054
Location
Mold, Clwyd
According to todays RAIL TPE are going to keep all 185's and use them on South TPE releasing the 170's. There will be platform lengthenings for them and at Northern where the four car 333 will be released and replaced with 3/6 car formations.

The Modern Railways version is that 21x185s will be retained, and 5 will go to Northern until Dec 2017 to work transferred routes.
The 44 new trains are said to include 12 EMUs (replacing the 350s).
Introduction is quoted as 13 bi-modes on TP North by end 2018, 12 EMUs on WCML routes by end 2019, and 19 bi-modes in 2020.
Presumably the 185s are released when sufficient bi-modes arrive.
 
Last edited:

Stats

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2009
Messages
943
The Modern Railways version is that 21x185s will be retained, and 5 will go to Northern until Dec 2017 to work transferred routes.
That doesn't work out to be 72% of the fleet being new either by units or carriages.

The 44 new trains are said to include 12 EMUs (replacing the 350s).
Introduction is quoted as 13 bi-modes on TP North by end 2018, 12 EMUs on WCML routes by end 2019, and 19 bi-modes in 2020.
That was all in the public announcement released a couple of weeks ago.
 

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
1,954
Location
Derby
Apologies if this has already been touched upon in the previous 27 pages of this thread but I'm a little confused by it's title; 'TPE franchise awarded to First' Surely it's just a renewal of the incumbent operator's franchise? The latest edition of Rail Magazine refers to TPE and "the new franchisee" but aren't the previous and the new franchisees one and the same?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,975
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Apologies if this has already been touched upon in the previous 27 pages of this thread but I'm a little confused by it's title; 'TPE franchise awarded to First' Surely it's just a renewal of the incumbent operator's franchise? The latest edition of Rail Magazine refers to TPE and "the new franchisee" but aren't the previous and the new franchisees one and the same?

No. While you would barely know, the incumbent is part-owned by Keolis.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
20,054
Location
Mold, Clwyd
No. While you would barely know, the incumbent is part-owned by Keolis.

In some official documents the current franchise is called First Keolis Transpennine Express (FKTPE).
Ownership is 55% First, 45% Keolis. Presumably Keolis put up cash at the start, much as they did for the GoVia franchises.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Its a completely fresh franchise spec with an open competition to find an operator not a renewal of same or similar terms provided to the incumbent without competition.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,924
By 2020, Transpennine Express will have seen delivery of its' second brand new train fleet inside of fifteen years - that is quite unprecedented. Plus, do you realise that the number of carriages operated by TPE will have more than doubled compared to what was operating twenty years previously? Granted, the North West - Scotland service has been added since, but the North West services, which weren't part of the Northern Spirit TPE operation, will have been chopped out by that point.

I've already made the argument, but a 5-car Hitachi AT-300 will have a capacity comparable to that of a 6-car class 185 formation, of which there are currently few. A 5-car Desiro Verve may well be similar. With every train operating with the equivalent capacity of a 6-car class 185, and at an enhanced frequency of six trains per hour (hopefully there will be the opportunity to double up the two semi-fast services per hour that are retaining 185s at peak times), this represents a DRAMATIC increase in capacity.

This is nothing like the Voyager situation, where 4 and 5 carriage trains with poor capacity replaced a fleet of 7 carriage ones. With TPE, we are getting both longer trains AND the frequency enhancement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good grief, are we calling for a third brand new Transpennine fleet within twenty years? :shock: I'm fairly confident that bi-mode units are being ordered for Transpennine North so that they can make use of the wires as they go up.

So may routes and so much rolling stock has moved between TPE and other TOCs since ATN it is meaningless making sweeping generalisations about capacity without doing some thorough research. The fact of the matter is their roughly 160std seat Class 185 cannot cope, even off peak and have much lower capacity than many of the trains they replaced.

The Voyager situation was very similar - frequency on the core routes more or less doubled - it was never about swapping 7 coaches for 4/5.

Apparently AT300 has 576 std seats in 10 car formation, that is, if it is what TPE are getting, almost exactly a 4 car 158 in the 5car format. 125mph stock is not the same as 100mph because of the large amount of dead space needed behind the cabs. 288 std seats is just not enough, it is a peak formation from 20 years before their date of introduction.

As others have also said, it is not enough for a business that has seen huge growth, and the trains presumably will not run as 10 cars.
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Messages
3,455
So may routes and so much rolling stock has moved between TPE and other TOCs since ATN it is meaningless making sweeping generalisations about capacity without doing some thorough research. The fact of the matter is their roughly 160std seat Class 185 cannot cope, even off peak and have much lower capacity than many of the trains they replaced.

The Voyager situation was very similar - frequency on the core routes more or less doubled - it was never about swapping 7 coaches for 4/5.

Apparently AT300 has 576 std seats in 10 car formation, that is, if it is what TPE are getting, almost exactly a 4 car 158 in the 5car format. 125mph stock is not the same as 100mph because of the large amount of dead space needed behind the cabs. 288 std seats is just not enough, it is a peak formation from 20 years before their date of introduction.

As others have also said, it is not enough for a business that has seen huge growth, and the trains presumably will not run as 10 cars.

Looking at the daft IEP layout I reckon standard class will be in the region of 312 - 320 with 21-27 1st class seats depending on 1st to standard mix etc, assuming a smaller kitchen or no kitchen and a small buffet, I assume most semi-fast services will run as paired 185's. How many services run as paired 185's at the moment?

Then there will be additional services and by the end of the franchise electrification should be done, meaning new electric units will be required to replace remaining 185's and maybe some or all of the bi-modes will be moved elsewhere and replaced.
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
20,054
Location
Mold, Clwyd
That doesn't work out to be 72% of the fleet being new either by units or carriages.
That was all in the public announcement released a couple of weeks ago.

Actually the MR retained 185 figure is 28 sets, not 21.
I think that matches the "72% new" stat, but I can't work out the "overall fleet 2/3 larger" thing.

12 EMUs does not look like an order from a different manufacturer, unless they have another taker for the same train.
You just wouldn't invest in a specialist depot for that few.
Depot strategy, for both Northern and TP, will need a lot of thought.
TP will need a Hitachi depot in the north west, and who knows what's planned for Northern's new trains (presuming they are not Hitachi).
 
Last edited:

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
12 EMUs does not look like an order from a different manufacturer, unless they have another taker for the same train.
You just wouldn't invest in a specialist depot for that few.

Worth noting the LM franchise consultation suggests higher specification trains for Liverpool-Birmingham and Crewe-Euston, so maybe the same trains and a joint maintenance facility could be an option?
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
20,054
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Worth noting the LM franchise consultation suggests higher specification trains for Liverpool-Birmingham and Crewe-Euston, so maybe the same trains and a joint maintenance facility could be an option?

Yes, but First will have made their franchise bid and business case without relying on future franchise bids, still several years away. They will have to sign contracts quickly.
It also depends how the new trains are financed.
If the maintenance risk lies with the manufacturer, then it's up to them to build an appropriate depot to potentially service other TOCs in the future.
Maybe that is what the planned Alstom site in Halewood is all about - who knows.
But if the risk lies with First, they will surely go with whoever is building the bi-modes (presumably Hitachi).
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
According to First 44 new trains all 5 car length, 12 of them will be pure electric and dedicated to Airport-Scotland runs while the rest will be Bi-Mode and available for North TPE. There isn't any mention of them being lengthenable as with Northerns order so assume rigid 5/10 car 23m formations likely meaning some stations will need platforms lengthening.


Current Fleet
51x3 185
4x2 170
10x4 350
6x2 156
Total 213 carriages or 201 minus the 156 to Northern for transferred Blackpool then you have the muddying of the portion worked with Glasgow 185 Barrow/Windermere services (numbers suggest they consider up to 6 185's as released by transferral of services to Northern).

New fleet mid 2020
44x5 X
28x3 185
total 304

=2/3 larger fleet
= 220 new 84 old = 72.36% new
 
Last edited:

mwmbwls

Member
Joined
14 Dec 2009
Messages
667
According to First 44 new trains all 5 car length, 12 of them will be pure electric and dedicated to Airport-Scotland runs while the rest will be Bi-Mode and available for North TPE. There isn't any mention of them being lengthenable as with Northerns order so assume rigid 5/10 car 23m formations likely meaning some stations will need platforms lengthening.


Current Fleet
51x3 185
4x2 170
10x4 350
6x2 156
Total 213 carriages or 201 minus the 156 to Northern for transferred Blackpool then you have the muddying of the portion worked with Glasgow 185 Barrow/Windermere services (numbers suggest they consider up to 6 185's as released by transferral of services to Northern).

New fleet mid 2020
44x5 X
28x3 185
total 304

=2/3 larger fleet
= 220 new 84 old = 72.36% new

IIRC Joseph pointed out that the Airport platforms max out at 8 coaches - so as a core TPE destination does this order predicate further new works?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top