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TPE franchise awarded to First

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Mordac

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This is going to upset some people here. I'm quoting from the specs for the 185 refurbishment, but it's on the commitments for all the other trains, including, amusingly, for the Mk 5 coaches, in what is obviously just the DfT people copy pasting the same boiler plate without questioning whether it applies or not. Anyway:
30. Enhancements of Class 185s
30.1 Consistent with the Franchisee’s proposal and subject to the obtaining any consent that is required by the lessor under the relevant Rolling Stock Lease (which the Franchisee shall use all reasonable endeavours to obtain), in addition to the requirements of paragraph 3 (Rolling Stock Quality Requirements) of Schedule 1.7 (The Train Fleet), the Franchisee shall:
[...]
(k) by no later than 31 March 2017, implement a commissioned and operational driver advisory system which shall instruct Train Drivers when to accelerate and coast whilst ensuring compliance with the timetable in the most energy efficient manner;

I remember when there was a thread about this a while ago, drivers here were seriously upset by the suggestion this might be introduced.
 
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pemma

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Use of 2 set of mk3 carriages is included in the franchise spec

Provision of additional Mark III coaches
38.1 In accordance with its obligations in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1.7 (The Train Fleet) the
Franchisee shall enter into a Rolling Stock Lease in relation to ten Mark III coaches using
all reasonable endeavours to ensure that all such rolling stock shall be capable of
unrestricted passenger carrying service by no later than 1 April 2017.
38.2 By no later than 30 September 2016, the Franchisee shall in relation to the vehicles referred
to in paragraph 38.1 overhaul and refurbish them and form them into two sets of coaches
each providing 280 standard class seats, 44 first class seats and a standing capacity of an
additional 140 passengers. In carrying out such overhaul and refurbishment works the
Franchisee shall incur operational expenditure of not less than 13
.
38.3 The Franchisee shall ensure that sufficient appropriate locomotives are available to it to
enable the two sets of Mark III coaches to be available for unrestricted passenger carrying
service by no later than 30 September 2016.

As is the right to hand back 15 x 185s on completion of Manchester-York electrification.

3 x 350s to be released by the December 2018 timetable change while 2 x 350s will still be in use in Spring 2019. The 22 x 185s being released won't start to be released until late 2019 and most will be released in 2020.

Like with the Northern franchise it seems hints of new seats on the 185s were incorrect

carry out an interior refresh programme on all passenger carrying
accommodation in all Class 185 Fleet including by installing new carpets and
flooring, new seat covers, new arm rests and grab handles;

A requirement to be able to carry 4 bikes on the CAF stock and 6 on the Hitachi stock is also included.
 

BurtonM

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Disappointing news on the 185s. The interior textiles etc do need a refresh - can only hope they better pad the seats, but it won't happen. I assume 'new grab handles' just means replacing the extant (useless) worn out seat things and chipped poles like for like? I'd like to see the addition of some more things to hold on to, especially in the vestibules. It'd be nice if they 'forgot' to put the tip up seats back in the cycle storage too, so as to help bring the cycle stoarage up towards Hitachi standards, but that's about as likely as finding a use for a 442.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is going to upset some people here. I'm quoting from the specs for the 185 refurbishment, but it's on the commitments for all the other trains,

I remember when there was a thread about this a while ago, drivers here were seriously upset by the suggestion this might be introduced.

DAS is part of the "digital railway" initiative along with ETCS and TMS, and is part of all new train specs.
The combination is going to be trialled on routes from Norwich to Great Yarmouth/Lowestoft.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-to-pilot-digital-railway-in-east-anglia.html
A number of train operators have now deployed driver advisory systems which assist with driving in the optimal manner to match the timetable. These have brought significant fuel savings, especially for freight operators such as Freightliner, but do not yet use real-time information about train movements. NR believes incorporating such data could bring significant benefits, for example by ensuring trains arrive at junctions at the optimal time to minimise conflicting movements. Discussions are underway with Thales for integrating DAS with train management systems at the future Romford ROC which will control services in East Anglia as well as London’s Crossrail route

TPE's drivers already use a form of this on the Siemens 185s to save fuel.
 
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Viscount702

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Do we know what is happening in relation to the MK3 sets. I don't think anything official has been said but the sets are supposed to be ready by 30 September 2016 in just over 2 months.
 

CosherB

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Re usage of the Pretendolino set (assuming that Porterbrook are on-board with this plan).

The above numbers (to me) indicate that each rake will be formed of:

1 x DVT, 1 x FO and 4 x TSO (+ 1 Class 68).

The full Pretendolino set has 2 x DVT, 2 x RFM, 5 x TSO and 3 x FO. My guess is that the RFMs will be stored, 1 x FO will be converted into a TSO, thus leaving two further Mk3 TSOs to be acquired. I doubt the RFMs will be converted to TSOs ..... but what do I know! :lol:
 
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FordFocus

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I remember when there was a thread about this a while ago, drivers here were seriously upset by the suggestion this might be introduced.

DAS has mixed results. I've heard it's been better for freight but had it's early glitches with DAS not taking into account trains been looped especially with the lower speeds of 15mph on the facing points causing trains behind to be delayed. It also needed more timing points inserted into the timetable. :oops: I believe one TOC has stopped updating the timetables for it and one is rumoured to have written off the investment because the fuel savings are simply not there.

It's rare I use DAS unless I'm working a service that I know has a bit of pathing or performance allowances in. Usually because it's booked to follow a stopper down the line.
 

Bletchleyite

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The full Pretendolino set has 2 x DVT, 2 x RFM, 5 x TSO and 3 x FO. My guess is that the RFMs will be stored, 1 x FO will be converted into a TSO, thus leaving two further Mk3 TSOs to be acquired. I doubt the RFMs will be converted to TSOs ..... but what do I know! :lol:

Those Standard numbers do look to me like the RFMs being fitted with Standard seats in an airline-only layout, given that a normal TSO has 76 seats, which would mean 304 seats in 4 TSOs. I'd expect there to be plenty of old IC70s knocking about for re-use.

OK, there will need to be wheelchair provision and a large bog (which one of the TSOs I think already has), but this wouldn't take up 24 seats' worth of space - that's 3 whole facing bays' worth. Depending what you want to hack around with, you could take out the buffet counter and put the large bog/wheelchair space there, with a large standing and luggage area too.
 
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hibtastic

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Travelled first class with TPE today from Manchester to Edinburgh - how good are the complimentary scotch eggs by the way!!!!!! Delicious!!! And the peppery crisps ain't too bad either!

It's still a bit of a pain that the 350s don't have WiFi though!
 

sprinterguy

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If they can be made to fit in the Western/"up"(Southbound) bay platforms at Newcastle ;)
If they are intended for use on Newcastle services then TPE will have to come up with an alternate arrangement, as the two longest western bays (platforms 9/10) are a very tight squeeze for 5 x 23 metre vehicles alone, without the additional length of a loco and DVT.

Platform 1 would be long enough, though (by running the rakes round Gateshead and over the High Level Bridge into Newcastle): For the sake of just two diagrams sufficient spare capacity might be found there to cross the eastern station throat and occupy that platform.
 

pemma

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If they are intended for use on Newcastle services then TPE will have to come up with an alternate arrangement, as the two longest western bays (platforms 9/10) are a very tight squeeze for 5 x 23 metre vehicles alone, without the additional length of a loco and DVT.

There will have to be alternative arrangements as TPE will have to start providing 2tph to Newcastle (prior to the new stock arriving) and eventually extend one of those to Edinburgh.
 

sprinterguy

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There will have to be alternative arrangements as TPE will have to start providing 2tph to Newcastle (prior to the new stock arriving) and eventually extend one of those to Edinburgh.
Indeed, there's going to have to be some fairly major changes to TPE operations at Newcastle over the course of the next 4 years with the doubling of the frequency, the introduction of 26 metre stock and the extension of one train an hour to Edinburgh, so I suppose that factoring in a couple of temporary loco hauled sets in the interim should be fairly small fry in comparison.
 

swt_passenger

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Because they have an order for 19x 5-car AT300 sets, as an add-on to First's West of England order, which will be 26m vehicles.

AT300 comes in 20m, 23m and 26m versions. How can anyone know at this stage if they are an identical add-on to the GW order?
 

sprinterguy

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Why is it assumed that some TPE new stock will necessarily be 26m length vehicles?
You would hope that with a stated capacity of 342 seats (24 first, 318 standard) on the TPE sets it would be considered difficult to fit that many seats into a bodyshell shorter than 26 metres, considering that the Great Western 5-car sets will seat 324 (36 first, 290 standard).

Both the CAF loco-hauled rakes and EMUs being ordered by TPE, which presumably will use 23 metre carriages, have 56 seats fewer across a comparable five carriage formation.
 
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swt_passenger

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Because they have an order for 19x 5-car AT300 sets, as an add-on to First's West of England order, which will be 26m vehicles.

You would hope that with a stated capacity of 342 seats (24 first, 318 standard) on the TPE sets it would be considered difficult to fit that many seats into a bodyshell shorter than 26 metres, considering that the Great Western 5-car sets will seat 324 (36 first, 290 standard).

Do we expect the GW 5 car sets to have IEP style catering facilities taking up nearly half a vehicle? Will TPE sets need the same?

I'm not saying they can't possible be 26m vehicles, I just think stating it unambiguously is a bit premature, until we know for certain.
 

sprinterguy

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I'm not saying they can't possible be 26m vehicles, I just think stating it unambiguously is a bit premature, until we know for certain.
Point taken, and I'm not usually one to treat speculation as fact, but I would personally be astonished if the AT300 units didn't use the longer 26 metre vehicles.
 

swt_passenger

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Is the simplest solution for longer TPE trains terminating at Newcastle to use the High Level and put them in P1? Memory suggests it is a fair bit longer than the west end bays, although it does taper to a very narrow end.

The online SA reckons 161 metres, so that seems adequate for just about anything TPE might be planning. 5 x Mk3 top and tailed might be tight though.
 

Domh245

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AT300 comes in 20m, 23m and 26m versions. How can anyone know at this stage if they are an identical add-on to the GW order?

Ordering a 20m or 23m variant would be pretty expensive for just 19 units. It'd require an almost complete redesign and re certification, which would incur a lot of cost on top of the base price.
 

sprinterguy

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Is the simplest solution for longer TPE trains terminating at Newcastle to use the High Level and put them in P1? Memory suggests it is a fair bit longer than the west end bays, although it does taper to a very narrow end.

The online SA reckons 161 metres, so that seems adequate for just about anything TPE might be planning. 5 x Mk3 top and tailed might be tight though.
Yeah, I suggested that platform 1 could be suitable. I recall it handling a 2+5 HST no bother on at least one occasion in the closing days of their use with Virgin Crosscountry.
 

TheKnightWho

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Is the simplest solution for longer TPE trains terminating at Newcastle to use the High Level and put them in P1? Memory suggests it is a fair bit longer than the west end bays, although it does taper to a very narrow end.

The online SA reckons 161 metres, so that seems adequate for just about anything TPE might be planning. 5 x Mk3 top and tailed might be tight though.

I suspect that's likely - its current use could easily be covered by platforms 5-8.
 

Spartacus

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Are 68s cleared over the HLB? I know 66s are, but only occasionally when there's no other option, maybe once a day on a regular basis at best, not once or twice an hour. They're both I think RA7.
 
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sprinterguy

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Are 68s cleared over the HLB? I know 66s are, but only occasionally when there's no other option, maybe once a day on a regular basis at best, not once or twice an hour. They're both I think RA7.
That's a good point, and something that I'd overlooked. According to the sectional appendix, the High Level Bridge is RA 5, and class 68s are not currently cleared, while (for comparison) the heavier class 67s are only permitted to cross the structure "during perturbed working".
 

Spartacus

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I don't think the 88s will be any better in terms of RA either. Could run through Newcastle and turn back North of the station near Heaton, which would be added capacity pressure, but I doubt whoever specified the plans even considered how they might be achieved.
 
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pemma

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You would hope that with a stated capacity of 342 seats (24 first, 318 standard) on the TPE sets it would be considered difficult to fit that many seats into a bodyshell shorter than 26 metres, considering that the Great Western 5-car sets will seat 324 (36 first, 290 standard).

Both the CAF loco-hauled rakes and EMUs being ordered by TPE, which presumably will use 23 metre carriages, have 56 seats fewer across a comparable five carriage formation.

Worth noting the loco-hauled sets and EMUs will both have 286 seats but the EMUs will have 5 extra standard class seats suggesting the EMUs and loco-hauled sets will have the same length carriages but the former will have less passenger space due to 2 cabs being built in to the units.
 

TheKnightWho

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I don't think the 88s will be any better in terms of RA either. Could run through Newcastle and turn back North of the station near Heaton, which would be added capacity pressure, but I doubt whoever specified the plans even considered how they might be achieved.

Maybe an incentive to actually get the bridge properly repaired and usable on both levels again...
 
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