• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE franchise to move to OLR

Status
Not open for further replies.

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,372
Location
County Durham
If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,372
Location
County Durham
I'd assume it's because they still think they're effective despite the fact that we all know what they're doing now.
And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.
 

CAF397

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2020
Messages
492
Location
Lancashire
If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
The day to day management team are still the same from last week when it was First Group ownership.

Until someone goes through the company with a brush and sweeps away those staff who have made TPE what it is today, then nothing will change.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.
If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...
 

LYuen

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2022
Messages
129
Location
Manchester
And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.
DfT pays the delay/cancellation repay. When the service is P code cancelled, the operator doesn't need to repay the relative delay when people take a later service as alternative.
Now OLR-TPE is also under DfT, so it is not a surprise they would abuse P code mechanism even more.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,622
Location
London
If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

At least nobody on here should be surprised at any of that, given what has been said on this thread.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,993
If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

But the grass is always greener on the other side… :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

3RDGEN

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2023
Messages
264
Location
Hull
No one is expecting any improvement in the near future after 19 years of First Group running the service into the ground. First have gone so that's the first improvement we wanted to see and now years of rebuilding will be required with the disruption of the TRU to go along with it.

The service has been a shambles for years not just the last 18 months, in fact COVID saved First TPE as the service in the run up to it was a disaster zone but they got a 2 year period of lower demand / service requirement.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,372
Location
County Durham
Until someone goes through the company with a brush and sweeps away those staff who have made TPE what it is today, then nothing will change.
The sooner that happens the better.

If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...
At least nobody on here should be surprised at any of that, given what has been said on this thread.
Yes, quite.

DfT pays the delay/cancellation repay. When the service is P code cancelled, the operator doesn't need to repay the relative delay when people take a later service as alternative.
Now OLR-TPE is also under DfT, so it is not a surprise they would abuse P code mechanism even more.
None of the other OLR TOCs abuse the P coding mechanism to anywhere near the same level as TPE. LNER and Northern both use P coding but not to remotely the same scale.

The service has been a shambles for years not just the last 18 months, in fact COVID saved First TPE as the service in the run up to it was a disaster zone but they got a 2 year period of lower demand / service requirement.
On the Newcastle route at least TPE was generally reliable throughout 2019 and early 2020. There were two trains an hour between Newcastle and Manchester and both turned up reliably. It went down to hourly with the first lockdown but remained reliable. Things started to go downhill late 2021/early 2022 and went downhill rapidly.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,787
Location
Wales
And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.
At least the trains are staying on the boards now, and being listed as "cancelled" rather than just disappearing as if they had never existed, with passengers none the wiser.

If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...
The official advice to the minister was the same too. But he decided that he needed to be seen to be doing something after the local election drubbing. "Something must be done! This is something, therefore we must do it"
 
Last edited:

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
1,731
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
On the Newcastle route at least TPE was generally reliable throughout 2019 and early 2020. There were two trains an hour between Newcastle and Manchester and both turned up reliably.
You were fortunate, on the Scarborough branch things went wrong in May 2018, and never recovered apart from the height of Covid lockdown. There were regular 3 hour gaps in what should be an hourly service during the period May 2018 - Mar 2020, and in one case a group of drunk people went on the rampage at Seamer station when stranded there for hours. Its no excuse for the behaviour, but it highlights the problems. I was travelling to the NW for the day once a week during this period and rarely managed a week without delay repay.

Whilst I can see that OLR taking over in itself will not solve the problems I think TPE had failed and needed to go. I am on acquaintance terms with a couple of now ex TPE staff and both were saying that back in 2018 that morale was at rock bottom which is why they left, and I dont believe anything has improved since then.

Hopefully things will go the same way as Northern where there has been some improvement since the OLR took over, no they are still far from perfect, but better than TPE.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,970
Location
Sheffield
Matthew Golton is no longer MD, unfortunately.

I can imagine Matthew Golton is quite relieved to get a break from TPE and stand back to take in air.

Chris Jackson is an able replacement. Whatever he can achieve may well rest on Matthew's incomplete workt, that's how management musical chairs operate.

Meanwhike I noted TPEs 3 car 185 13.08 arrival into Sheffield today fromi Liverpool was more lightly loaded than Northern's s 3 car 195 13.05 stopper from Piccadiilly.

Many on the stopper will have boarded at intermediate stations but it's noticeable that a lot are now opting for the slower, but more reliable Northern trains between the two city centres.
 
Last edited:

Parjon

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2022
Messages
519
Location
St Helens
No trains from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street at all for three hours this afternoon (there should have been 6).

Manchester-Liverpool is by order of magnitude the biggest intercity passenger flow in the north.

I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,560
Location
UK
I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.

Are TPE genuinely 'failing' or is it a case of them doing what they can, with the resources they have, using the tools at their disposal ?

It really does highlight when goodwill has evaporated and industrial relationships are their minimum, how important your staff are.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,970
Location
Sheffield
No trains from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street at all for three hours this afternoon (there should have been 6).

Manchester-Liverpool is by order of magnitude the biggest intercity passenger flow in the north.

I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.

6 cancelled between Piccadilly and Liverpool on South Pennine today
 

EZJ

Member
Joined
20 Jun 2022
Messages
165
Location
Shoreham
I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,622
Location
London
I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.

Sorry to hear.

I’m pleased to say that where I am there is a feeling that management and staff are all in it together. Although of course the dispute is bad enough, even in that setting.

Clearly things at TPE are much worse than that. It sounds like a toxic environment and I can only imagine how bad it must be day in day out.

We can only hope for an improvement for the sake of everyone involved.
 

josh-j

Member
Joined
14 Sep 2013
Messages
199
Yes they are evidently failing. If it's the limit of what they can do, they are a lost cause.
Who is "they"? The government is pulling the strings. With a government that cares more about revenue extraction from a failed service than about proper public transport provision, the railways will be in a perpetual struggle. OLR makes more sense than First but don't anticipate much of a change from this one intervention alone. Mind you I hope it will help improve how staff are treated at the very least.
 

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,456
Location
Back Cab
Are TPE genuinely 'failing' or is it a case of them doing what they can, with the resources they have, using the tools at their disposal ?

It really does highlight when goodwill has evaporated and industrial relationships are their minimum, how important your staff are.
Try telling our "leader of the year" that fact. Leaders are supposed to inspire, not dictate!
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
1,953
Who is "they"? The government is pulling the strings. With a government that cares more about revenue extraction from a failed service than about proper public transport provision, the railways will be in a perpetual struggle. OLR makes more sense than First but don't anticipate much of a change from this one intervention alone. Mind you I hope it will help improve how staff are treated at the very least.
2015 to 2022 TPE has received over £610m of government subsidy. We will need to wait for an update in November for 2023. But even in the good years the franchise only paid the government £55m. So I'm not seeing the alledged revenue extraction.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,622
Location
London
2015 to 2022 TPE has received over £610m of government subsidy. We will need to wait for an update in November for 2023. But even in the good years the franchise only paid the government £55m. So I'm not seeing the alledged revenue extraction.

You can split hairs about the wording, but the point being made is the government is still preventing the dispute being settled by blocking local negotiations (as with every other TOC). In TPE’s case it’s clear that there are also significant issues with local management and the way the staff are being treated, and a resulting lack of goodwill.

That’s why, unless and until something else changes, the move to OLR hasn’t and won’t make any significant improvement to the service.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,794
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.
Are you able to expand on this, it would be interesting to understand more about why things have got so bad there? Don't worry if you can't, I know these things can be sensitive.

For context, and before anyone accuses me of being anti-union (I'm not), from my own experiences toxic working environments can happen for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it comes from poor management, poor or changes to working practices, members of staff causing issues etc etc. In my field one of the most toxic working environments occurred when two parallel departments were put together and the different working practices and cultures clashed, leading to an insane power struggle not only amongst management but staff as well. In the end industrial relationships broke down left, right and centre and took years to try to resolve.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top