TPE Guard would not accept tickets being used in accordance with Condition 19(c)

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by Bletchleyite, 25 May 2015.

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  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I would agree it is not valid, because the 7DS being valid as if it was a TrainCard on a weekend is a TfGM thing, and PTE passes are not classed as season tickets in 19(c) splits. So you got away with that there. If he'd been in a bad mood it could have been a Prosecution...

    If it was a 7DS from Manchester to Glazebrook (or any station beyond that) it would have been OK.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  2. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    It wasn't a PTE pass! ;) It was an actual rail only bog standard 7DS MAU-SFD.
    (source)
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It is acting as a PTE pass. It is only a season ticket where it is acting as a season ticket between the two stations noted on it or any intermediate station by any permitted route. Its permitted routes have no relevance to Manchester-Glazebrook.

    That 19(c) split would not be valid with a Traincard or Countycard (or whatever they are known as now), so I am firmly of the view it is not valid with that PTE exemption either. What you're basically getting is a free Traincard on a weekend included with your season ticket, and to me that would have the same validity as an actual Traincard.

    Yes I know. In that situation it is in my view acting as a PTE pass, not a season ticket as normally understood by the railway.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  4. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Unfortunately that was not the view of Customer Relations:
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Very interesting, as I'm with the conductor on that one, and I think Customer Services have got it wrong. Though carrying a printout of that with you when doing it would most likely ensure it was accepted, even if not strictly valid.

    I wonder what Yorkie's view would be, if he's reading?
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I think Neil Williams is blatantly looking for reasons why tickets might not be valid because he doesn't like the idea of JakeF saving money tbh, and you just thought that you would conveniently threaten him with prosecution. I'm not sure why you'd think a MAU - SLD 7DS cannot act as a season ticket regardless of the additional free benefit validity being used.

    Chiltern Railways offer a similar deal, but I bet you wouldn't have tried to claim that doesn't count as a season for NRCoC 19 (c)?
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  7. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I brought this up briefly at a forum meal or fares workshop and the general consensus was that a 7DS doesn't stop being a 7DS just because the local authority has granted that 7DS additional validity.
     
  8. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Just because I don't like Advances :)

    It isn't anything to do with a PTE, so that isn't relevant. PTE passes are specifically excluded from 19(c) as season tickets (which by extension means you can use a season ticket to get into the PTE pass area, thus forming something approximating to an outboundary Travelcard, so this isn't solely a disadvantage). I personally would consider the free validity a PTE pass, though I guess others don't.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It does seem strange that that validity, when issued free as a perk, would be allowed for 19(c) splits, but not when it is paid for in the form of a Traincard/Countycard.
     
  9. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Two completly different products sold under different terms, extending their validity doesn't change the original terms.
     
  10. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    A few months back a guard was highly adamant that a 7DS between two GM stations in addition to a Glazebrook-Llandudno Off Peak Return (SVR) was invalid on the non-stop TPE between Manchester and Warrington on a Saturday. It took five minutes before he huffed and walked away.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 4 Jun 2015
  11. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Mauldeth Road to Salford Central (I had to look that up)..... which is its own line of route ticket with permitted routes 7 days a week, and has weekend 'traincard' validity.

    It's own permitted routes: the obvious is Mauldeth Road-Piccadilly-Oxford Road-Deansgate-Salford Crescent-Salford Central. Locals will tell me whether there is any other validity.

    It is therefore valid on TPE between Picc and Deansgate and (on the Victoria route) from Salford Central to Salford Crescent when combined with other tickets. Possibly further if there are any other permitted routes.

    The journey in question was (I will assume) piccadilly to Warrington cent. Tickets held were

    A-Mauldeth road to Salford central season
    B-above acting as a weekend traincard
    C-off peak return glazebrook to llandudno

    I see two issues:

    Are A and B considered to be the same or as two different things? Is B considered to be a PTE product or a rail season ticket or a rail non-season? If B is considered a different rail season ticket (albeit one without a piece of card) which I think is what kofieye is suggesting, then we have two season tickets which is an issue.

    A third issue is whether A is morphed (on a weekend) to become X. If so, what is X? The link given states "A rail season ticket between two stations in Greater Manchester also allows you to travel by train anywhere in Greater Manchester at weekends and public holidays". The word 'also' is significant, and suggests that my A and B above is correct.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2015
  12. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    As a guard on that route I would accept your season as a season only. Valid as far as Deansgate and then a Deansgate to wherever ticket. I wouldn't consider a perk of holding the season to be valid for the purposes of 19(c) and I definitely wouldn't be accepting a ticket from Glazebrook unless you held a 7DS valid to that point. Which for me would have to be one valid to that station for the full 7 days, not just two, so a Glazebrook to Manchester season or a 7 day Wayfarer/Rover.
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    This was my opinion as well. Though others above seem to have evidence otherwise.
     
  14. Jonfun

    Jonfun Member

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    The fact that it's had to go all the way to the revenue managers suggests that it's one of those things which doesn't have an easy answer and falls into a bit of a grey area, which there are a lot of in the sometimes complicated world of railway ticketing. I would personally think it isn't valid by the letter of the rules - a season ticket from Mauldeth Road to Salford clearly isn't a season ticket from Mauldeth Road to Glazebrook which is what you'd need if you wanted to combine it with a point to point ticket from Glazebrook on a non-stopping train - the validity to Glazebrook is only 2 days out of 7, which isn't long enough to satisfy the definition of "season ticket" in the NRCoC, and not long enough to satisfy the definition of a "leisure travel pass" in the NRCoC. The fact that condition 19(c) specifically excludes PTE products (as I understand it the additional validity is decided by TfGM, and not the rail companies?) gives weight to this opinion.

    But - if the company has decided they'd like to accept it regardless, good on them. If they've sat down, looked at it, and decided they're happy then there we go. Bit of additional flexibility for the passenger.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree it is a bit of a grey area.

    But we need to consult the NRCoC.
    Do they cover the entire journey? Yes; the tickets are valid Manchester - Glazebrook and Glazebrook - Llandudno

    Is one of the tickets a Season ticket? Yes.

    Is the ticket issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority? No

    The other ticket(s) is/are not Season tickets? Yes
    So what part of Condition 19(c) does it fall foul of? (without inventing a non-existent rule)
     
  16. Coolzac

    Coolzac Member

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    I agree with Yorkie. Some of the previous posters think that it doesn't count as a season ticket on that route, but the fact is it is a valid season ticket for that route on that day according to the rules set by the train companies. It doesn't 'transform' into a different type of ticket.

    Ask yourself simply this- what type of ticket is the OP travelling on for the first leg of their journey?

    I would answer season ticket, but you probably guessed that from the first half of my post!
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    My personal take is that the additional validity *is* issued on behalf of a Passenger Transport Executive or local authority. However I do see why Yorkie's simpler interpretation of the letter of the rules holds some water, and it seems TPE agree.
     
  18. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    The Manchester to Glazebrook ticket (when used thus) is.
     
  19. andyb2706

    andyb2706 Member

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    I would have to agree with the guard on this one. I was always under the impression that to do a split ticket, which basically is what is trying to be done here the train has to be stopping at the station concerned, which in this case the OP has said is Glazebrook and the OP has already stated that the train was express from Manchester to Warrington. Or have I misunderstood this? Just answered this part of the question myself, found the thread on the forum regarding ticketing and I now know that under this circumstance it is valid, although I can see why people get confused.

    Also out of curiosity why did you get a TPE service from Manchester if you wanted to go to Llandudno? As it would have meant a change at Warrington Central with a walk across to Warrington Bank Quay to pick up the train to Llandudno which would have started its journey from Manchester but would have gone via Newton-le-Willows? Just being nosey on that one. Still being nosey with this one though.
     
    Last edited: 7 Jun 2015
  20. Jonfun

    Jonfun Member

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    It isn't a season ticket from Mauldeth Road to Glazebrook though. It is a season ticket from Mauldeth Road to Salford. The definition of a "Season Ticket" according to the National Conditions of Carriage is:

    "...a ticket which allows you to travel for a period of 7
    consecutive days or longer
    and will have (except in the case of an Electronic
    ticket) one or more of the following characteristics:
    (i) it shows the word “Season”;
    (ii) it shows the word “Travelcard”;
    (iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number"

    Which for a journey from Mauldeth Road to Salford, it passes. With this, I have no quibbles. For a journey from Mauldeth Road to Glazebrook, it allows travel for just two days. So I don't believe by the letter of the law it should count as a season from Mauldeth Road to Glazebrook. It also cannot count as a leisure travel pass as it is too short in duration. My interpretation of the rules is that the season ticket element of the product, for the purpose of the intended journey in the OP, would end at Deansgate.

    Even if we treat it as a season, I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that it isn't issued on behalf of a PTE. The extra validity is something decreed by TfGM, the local PTE, rather than the train operators, is it not?

    Regardless of the above, and the rights and wrongs of it all, I think it is good that the company have erred on the side of allowing it, however, as it's one of those situations which is going to crop up very rarely in the grand scheme of things, and the rules weren't written with situations like this in mind.
     
  21. Coolzac

    Coolzac Member

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    I 100% agree. I think sensible people can look at cases like this and come to different conclusions, so I think it is good that TPE have erred on the side of the customer in this case.
     
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree with your last paragraph however you are bringing things into it that are not in the NRCoC, thus over-complicating it.

    As for treating it as a season or not, it IS a season.

    As for whether it's valid to Glazebrook on weekends, it IS valid to Glazebrook on weekends.

    We can go on and on about other stuff that isn't in the NRCoC for the rest of eternity and it will make not one bit of difference.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I agree that this is causing some confusion, but the NRCoC makes no reference to this. If they re-worded it, then they could stop it.

    My initial thoughts were 'this sounds like it's not valid' but then I looked closely at what Condition 19(c) actually says - and not what we think it might say!

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    Yes it is valid, you have been confused by people who refer only to 19(a) which is the majority of occasions when people use Condition 19.

    You may want to read our guide to Split ticketing, in this case we're looking specifically at 19(c).
    Maybe it was cheaper to go that way?;)

    Also I've previously missed the train via Newton-le-Willows, caught the following TPE, ran to Bank Quay and caught the train I earlier missed. Probably not the case here, but possible.
     
  23. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I think it's quite clear that the season ticket is being treated in two different ways. In the first instance it is valid as a season ticket between Mauldeth Road and Deansgate. Of that there is no dispute. The PTE then allow it as a freebie to travel from Deansgate to Glazebrook. In this guise it is neither a season ticket nor a leisure travel pass, therefore as far as condition 19 is concerned it is just a ticket. Can one piece of card be treated as two things? Well it happens elsewhere. Annual seasons in the south are also gold discount cards valid for up to 4 people. They can simultaneously be a season ticket for the holder and a discount card for the companions if the route or part of it is covered by the season ticket.

    So, I agree with yorkie and TPE that the combination is valid.
     
  24. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    The use of the ticket doesn't change who it was issued by. It's a National Rail Season Ticket. How's it's used doesn't magically transform it into a ticket issued by or on behalf of a PTE.

    I concur with Yorkie and the sensible interpretation taken by TPE.
     
  25. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    ...how? I thought we had covered this. It's not a traincard!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    This is a strange interpretation, given its generally accepted that 3in7 and similar products are considered acceptable for the present iteration of 19(c).
     
  26. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Please can someone tell me where the hell it says anything about a PTE on the ticket? Or where it says Traincard on it?

    And can someone please confirm whether this is or is not a standard 7DS just like any other?
     

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  27. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    In response to some of the earlier posts, I was meeting someone en route at Bidston and at the time, Glazebrook - Llandudno was permitted via Liverpool, Bidston and Wrexham.

    I believe the combination was valid because:

    Clearly, a ticket with SEASON-00M07D printed on it is a season. It was not issued on behalf of a PTE or local authority, therefore any extra validity afforded to it by the PTE does not change the fact that it is a season. It doesn't suddenly become issued by the PTE. It doesn't have to be valid to Glazebrook for 7 days. It was valid on the day as far as Glazebrook, and it was a season. So I can use a ticket from Glazebrook to wherever in conjunction with it. Nothing more to it.

    Incidentally, EMT as well as TPE confirmed that the combination was acceptable. It may take some time to find the correspondence though.

    And whilst it is unlikely I will use such a combination again in the near future (I am shortly moving back to Birkenhead and then heading off to Mainz) I would refuse to pay any form of excess if an EMT or TPE guard took exception to it. I certainly doubt it's one the prosecutors would relish taking to court.
     
  28. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    It is. Between the two points stated. The issue is whether it's additional weekend validity given by TfGM (in its capacity as a PTE) is A B or X in my earlier post.

    This forensic discussion only serves to provide enjoyment for those who are participating, and noone has a gripe with yourself.

    The answer given by the TOC's by email is the correct answer for any grey area (whether consumer law about ambiguous terms is judged applicable or not) and is as we all would hope.
     
  29. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Absolutely, and I have no gripe with anyone else.

    It just feels like certain points raised are being ignored, and that things that aren't relevant seem to be brought into the matter! ;)
     
  30. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't think it's been ignored. It's just that neither side was able to convince the other, which is quite normal for many things, especially where shades of grey can be seen to be involved to some extent.
     
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