I'm on mobile at the minute but there is a story on the TPE Facebook group about a woman and her child being taken off a service as she'd forgotten her railcard - potentially stranding them both. Can't provide a link but it is at the top of their page.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
TPE kicks woman and child off train
- Thread starter 142094
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
deltabravo
Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2011
- Messages
- 137
I've also been reading about this on FTPE's Facebook page, seems pretty heated.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Last edited by a moderator:
Raises a couple of interesting questions...
1. Is it reasonable to suggest that taking your child with you should exempt you from abiding by the rules like everyone else has to?
2. Even in the age of gender equality, would this have drawn anywhere near as much attention if it was a father with his child instead of a mother?
3. With the technology available these days, couldn't there be some better way to check eligibility for concession/railcard fares than possession of a card? A database (with photo ID) of concession and railcard holders that transport staff (not just rail) could check on a mobile device might be a possibility.
4. At what point does a passenger service provider's duty of care stop and personal responsibility begin?
1. Is it reasonable to suggest that taking your child with you should exempt you from abiding by the rules like everyone else has to?
2. Even in the age of gender equality, would this have drawn anywhere near as much attention if it was a father with his child instead of a mother?
3. With the technology available these days, couldn't there be some better way to check eligibility for concession/railcard fares than possession of a card? A database (with photo ID) of concession and railcard holders that transport staff (not just rail) could check on a mobile device might be a possibility.
4. At what point does a passenger service provider's duty of care stop and personal responsibility begin?
SS4
Established Member
Anyone have a link?
Not that I've read it but I imagine the story is that an unfeeling jobsworth is deliberately and maliciously persecuting the poor passenger who's mistake is either glossed over or put down to innocent cause (like forgetfulness). That the passenger is in the wrong and probably refused to pay the correct fare will not be mentioned and it shall be implied that there are no more services for hours if not until the morning.
Don't take facebook as truth :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Success!
Not that I've read it but I imagine the story is that an unfeeling jobsworth is deliberately and maliciously persecuting the poor passenger who's mistake is either glossed over or put down to innocent cause (like forgetfulness). That the passenger is in the wrong and probably refused to pay the correct fare will not be mentioned and it shall be implied that there are no more services for hours if not until the morning.
Don't take facebook as truth :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Success!
deltabravo
Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2011
- Messages
- 137
SS4
Established Member
@jcollins: could you put that in code tags to make it easier to scroll through?
Certainly possible but of course that card costs money, eligibility does not imply possession. You could check the database (if one exists) but that would cost time. Some suggest (reasonably accurately) that this would deprive the TOCs of revenue but in my opinion the cost in time is not worth it and it is made very clear on purchasing both railcard and tickets that the card must be shown.
Nope, but children is one of the major pillars of reporting. This is why a child dying gets more news time than an adult. People like you or I who look beyond the child are attacked for being uncaring (hope I'm not putting words into your mouth, please correct me if this is wrong).
Unlikely.
Of course not. Gender equality appears to be far more about giving women equal rights in previously male areas but not giving men equal rights in previously female areas - family court and custody is the most obvious example.
Certainly possible but of course that card costs money, eligibility does not imply possession. You could check the database (if one exists) but that would cost time. Some suggest (reasonably accurately) that this would deprive the TOCs of revenue but in my opinion the cost in time is not worth it and it is made very clear on purchasing both railcard and tickets that the card must be shown.
90019
Established Member
I'm struggling to see what the difficulty in carrying a card with you when you travel is.
No card, no discount - it's not exactly rocket science
Why should the operators invest in a whole new, more complicated system when the current one works fine?
The new system you propose would still require people to carry a card or some form of ID anyway, so that they can prove they're eligable for the discount. Then the staff would have to check this central database for every single passenger with the discount, taking up more time and meaning the guard has to carry an extra device with them for checking. What happens when it breaks? Does the guard just have to accept all discounted tickets?
Honestly, I can't see any real advantage over the current system, and anyway - If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
it sounds like the person in question forgot thier railcard! If you dont have a railcard you dont get a discount. It is quite clear in the T&C. That makes you a potential fare evader. Sorry, harsh but true.
Funny that when i had a YP railcard i never "forgot" it or "lost" it!
Funny that when i had a YP railcard i never "forgot" it or "lost" it!
SS4
Established Member
Ah but this woman has a child, therefore we're meant to overlook such a trivial thing since nobody with a child could possibly be up to no good
A young man between 16 and 25 however, is responsible for all ills in the country at the moment and is, until he can prove his legitimacy, a fare evader
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The unanswered question is perhaps did the persons without railcards get offered the chance to take a UPFN and rejected it?
I'm also thinking of a database being a useful defence against the use of fake railcards and concession passes. Genuine ones could have a RFID chip built in (magnetic strips aren't reliable enough for long-term use) which could be checked with the system returning a photo and valid/expired details. People who genuinely forgot/misplaced/lost their card could give their name, address and pass number which would return the same page on the device if genuine, and if not returned successfully the full fare charged.
I hope this ends up like the Northern case with the wheelchair/scooter guy. If I remember correctly, didn't he end up being forced to apologise and agree to a non-disclosure agreement in return for the company deciding not to pursue defamation action in court?
I hope this ends up like the Northern case with the wheelchair/scooter guy. If I remember correctly, didn't he end up being forced to apologise and agree to a non-disclosure agreement in return for the company deciding not to pursue defamation action in court?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Or one person who buy a railcard and twenty other people would 'share' their railcard by saying they forgot it and giving their friends details.
That's why I said it would show the photo ID on the device. No positive ID, pay full fare.
PhilipW
Member
Just worth pointing out that in life everyone mades mistakes and forgets things. No matter how hard we try, we still all do. It is just part of being human. Sure we have to accept the consequences of our actions but we should still be treated with a bit of common sense. You cannot legislate for common sense, you just have to have it. There is no need for those in authority to jump on you like a "ton of bricks" just because you have forgotten a railcard.
Humanity, humanity, humanity.
Humanity, humanity, humanity.
lyesbkz
Member
FTPE via Facebook said:
..I wonder what the outcome was?
People are just doing their job. I wouldn't be surprised if, for it to get to this stage, the passenger had become abusive or uncooperative with the procedure set in place for those who have forgotten their railcard, so the conductor had no choice but to take matters further.
It would be unlikely (although not particularly unjustified) for them to jump straight to removing the passengers from the train.
SS4
Established Member
In your opinion what should have happened? That she was offered the chance to pay the appropriate fare before being chucked off the train is almost certain.
The most probable cause of events:
- Passenger boards at station without railcard
- Staff check tickets and see no railcard
- Staff offer her the anytime single for her and her child
- She refuses to pay
- An argument ensues, meaning no other tickets are checked for the duration of said argument
- Woman still refuses to pay
- Staff kick them off at the next station
Eagle
Established Member
Or how about, to save time on the guard's behalf, you put all the details and the photo onto a small ticket-sized card and let the passenger carry it with them. In fact you could do away with the database, as it's now redundant information. Also it would save the need for an expensive device with mobile internet access and a large colour screen for displaying the photo in a recognizable way.
If you include my modifications it's a workable system!
How do you plan on replacing the first of the two purposes, checking the validity of passes presented?
I've only "lost" my railcard once, and only because it was in a little pocket of my wallet I never checked.
The very nice FGW lady just gave me a top-up ticket instead, to cover the difference in the fare. Happy to refund it when I finally dug the railcard out, too.
The very nice FGW lady just gave me a top-up ticket instead, to cover the difference in the fare. Happy to refund it when I finally dug the railcard out, too.
Eagle
Established Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_mrNQBLSMU
The current system works fine. Yours is pointless, complicated, expensive and open to abuse. It is the passenger's duty to keep their railcard with them at all times while travelling, as is detailed in the terms and conditions of the ticket, and in the NRCOC. It's not a hard thing to do.
junglejames
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Dec 2010
- Messages
- 2,069
Oh wow oh wow oh wow.
The only information available is what is on facebook. Therefore, there is nothing out there to suggest this woman is some sort of horrible scum who was deliberately trying to avoid paying her fare.
So, what evidence do you lot have for these comments? None. She apparently wanted to pay the excess but couldnt, so offered for her partner to do so at York. She has since provided evidence to TPE of her railcard.
Now it may be that her comments are not true, but there is no proof of this, so it is unfair to make the comments most of you seem to be making.
So far it doesnt show the guard in a good light, but Im not commenting on the guard as its impossible to say what the truth really is.
Those of you taking the story at face value, and saying she never had her railcard, so was in the wrong etc etc. Do you have no morals? What about a UPFN? If we are taking the story at face value, then it would seem she would have been happy with this. As for those who have never forgotten anything. Hip hip hooray. Arent you clever. Loads of people forget things, and I dont believe you have never forgotten anything.
As for those thinking those with children should all be treated the same etc. There are reasons why that doesnt happen. Its because children are more vulnerable. Its unfair to leave children outside for ages on a station with no way of contacting home, just like its unfair to take a child to a Metallica, or other such rediculously loud concert, or just like its not allowed to take a child to a strip club etc etc. For this reason, the same would also apply to a father and baby. Its the baby/ child that makes the difference. If you are advocating treating everyone the same, whether baby or grown up, then I ask this question. Would you take a baby of your own to a strip club or let them drink alcohol etc? I doubt it. There isnt perfect equality between babies and grown ups, and its like that for a very good reason. So yes, you do have to show some extra leniancy when there is a baby. OK, so perhaps some parents treat their own children like dirt, but that doesnt mean others have to do the same does it?
The only information available is what is on facebook. Therefore, there is nothing out there to suggest this woman is some sort of horrible scum who was deliberately trying to avoid paying her fare.
So, what evidence do you lot have for these comments? None. She apparently wanted to pay the excess but couldnt, so offered for her partner to do so at York. She has since provided evidence to TPE of her railcard.
Now it may be that her comments are not true, but there is no proof of this, so it is unfair to make the comments most of you seem to be making.
So far it doesnt show the guard in a good light, but Im not commenting on the guard as its impossible to say what the truth really is.
Those of you taking the story at face value, and saying she never had her railcard, so was in the wrong etc etc. Do you have no morals? What about a UPFN? If we are taking the story at face value, then it would seem she would have been happy with this. As for those who have never forgotten anything. Hip hip hooray. Arent you clever. Loads of people forget things, and I dont believe you have never forgotten anything.
As for those thinking those with children should all be treated the same etc. There are reasons why that doesnt happen. Its because children are more vulnerable. Its unfair to leave children outside for ages on a station with no way of contacting home, just like its unfair to take a child to a Metallica, or other such rediculously loud concert, or just like its not allowed to take a child to a strip club etc etc. For this reason, the same would also apply to a father and baby. Its the baby/ child that makes the difference. If you are advocating treating everyone the same, whether baby or grown up, then I ask this question. Would you take a baby of your own to a strip club or let them drink alcohol etc? I doubt it. There isnt perfect equality between babies and grown ups, and its like that for a very good reason. So yes, you do have to show some extra leniancy when there is a baby. OK, so perhaps some parents treat their own children like dirt, but that doesnt mean others have to do the same does it?
Badger
Member
Innocent until proven guilty. It's possible that didn't happen too.
At last, the voice of reason
In yet another thread we have rail staff and wannabes circling the wagons at the slightest implication that a rail worker may have been in the wrong. Despite the fact that nobody knows more than a sniff of the full facts the usual "forum rules" seem to apply
-Any and all actions taken by rail staff are completely justified
-Passengers are basically mendacious potential fare dodgers
I don't know the facts either, but then I'm not rushing to judgement about "fare evasion", any more than I'm rushing to brand the conductor an unfeeling jobsworth.
Whatever the facts, isn't it better to apply common sense and compassion to the situation, rather than hide behind a wall of T abnd C's.
And yes, the fact that there is a child involved does make the case different. Anyone who thinks that it doesn't shouldn't be involved in a customer facing role in any organisation. And neither should anyone who doesn't recognise the possibility of an honest mistake
Hydro
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Mar 2007
- Messages
- 2,204
Trial by Facebook. The best way to browbeat "The Man" into letting you off by whipping up poorly informed public indignation.
Or is it the best way of highlighting poor service and breaches of basic human standards as we know them?
In this case? Who knows.
Or is it the best way of highlighting poor service and breaches of basic human standards as we know them?
In this case? Who knows.
Junglejames - pay at the other end was a non-starter - I can't see any RPI or Guard accepting that one for reasons that are blatantly obvious.
UFN or TIR was where I think this should have gone. The only reason to ask somebody to leave is if they are repeatedly abusive as far as I'm concerned - and that applies to anyone whether they have children or not. Slightly different for me though because I only stop at main staffed stations as a rule. Without any evidence that the woman was abusive, I'd have to be of the opinion that the Guard should have gone down the UFN/TIR route.
UFN or TIR was where I think this should have gone. The only reason to ask somebody to leave is if they are repeatedly abusive as far as I'm concerned - and that applies to anyone whether they have children or not. Slightly different for me though because I only stop at main staffed stations as a rule. Without any evidence that the woman was abusive, I'd have to be of the opinion that the Guard should have gone down the UFN/TIR route.
SS4
Established Member
In an ideal world. Also in an ideal world nobody would try and evade paying the correct fare, North Korea would be a democracy and wealth would be shared equitably.
How do you tell the difference between an honest mistake and a good actor? Why is so hard to follow the rules? Imagine the outrage had TPE made an "honest mistake" and "forgot" to put that train on? Were the lack of WMD in Iraq an honest mistake?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Trial by Facebook - the outcome with the most likes is correct
Last edited:
SS4 quite - I'm afraid honest mistakes have consequences. It's not hard to remember a railcard, and if you don't you must expect to have to pay for a new ticket as you're required to by the T&Cs which you agreed to when you bought the ticket. I lost a day bus ticket in Bournemouth once. It was an honest mistake but I still had to buy a new one, and then learn not to be so stupid in future!
SS4
Established Member
What do you say to the hundred if not thousands of railcard holders that manage to ensure they have their railcard with them for every journey? What about those who lose it but spend £28 on a new one before travelling because they realised they forgot it and the T&Cs demand the railcard be hold?
As Ferret said, actions have consequences. The nbus pass specifically states:
In other words it's largely irrelevant whether it's an honest mistake or not. It matters only insofar as to whether the guard does a TIR or not.
As Ferret said, actions have consequences. The nbus pass specifically states:
In other words it's largely irrelevant whether it's an honest mistake or not. It matters only insofar as to whether the guard does a TIR or not.
- Status