TPE kicks woman and child off train

Status
Not open for further replies.

Goatboy

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,274
What are the chances of the guard remembering them the next time though?

In my opinion-
The ticket should be marked "no railcard shown" and then a new full price ticket issued, if they do have a railcard then they can get a refund once on the full price ticket at a ticket office by showing the railcard and tickets, if they forget it again tough they should be more careful and the aggro involved will help focus their minds.

The terms and conditions are quite clear.
I completely agree. I honestly wish the industry would get more consistent on ALL ticketing issues including railcards.

It's time we made sure that every passenger who steps onto a train knows exactly what will happen if they are not in posession of a valid ticket for the journey they wish to make and they've boarded at a station with ample purchasing facilities, ie an open ticket office.

Honestly, the current situation is a complete farce.

Depending on whose train you are travelling on, a passenger who ignores an open booking office and elects not to purchase a ticket, or travel with the wrong ticket, or forgets a railcard', or whatever, could face:

a) Prosecution
b) Being ejected from the train
c) A Penalty Fare
d) Being sold a full price ticket
e) Being sold whatever ticket they want with any railcard discounts they chose
f) Being sold no ticket at all and travelling free of charge

Is it really any wonder that people:

a) genuinelly get caught out and fined because they thought it was ok not to buy
b) Consistently don't bother to buy a ticket because hey, the train manager (I'm looking at YOU, Cross Country) will just sell them the full range anyway
c) Always 'forget' a railcard

etc etc when it's so completely random?

Depending on where you are you could attempt to evade a £2 fare and be prosecuted and charged with a criminal offence or you could attempt to evade a £100 fare and simply... be charged the price you should have been anyway with no further action.

Madness.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,008
But the important bit of what yorkie said is "where deemed appropriate". If a conductor sees the same person forgetting their railcard again, then presumably the upgrade option is no longer available.

So long as it's made clear to the passenger the first time, that discretion won't be shown in future, then I don't have a problem with that.
What are the chances of the guard remembering them the next time though?
Perhaps some of our resident conductors could oblige here. But the impression I get from reading posts is that conductors quickly identify which passengers try it on on a regular basis.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,168
guards do tend to get to know the " regular miscreants "......we obviously pass intel between us as well......
 

Muzer

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
2,738
You can excess a railcard-discounted ticket at a ticket office. So what if you board at a station with {no, a closed} ticket office?

My only experience of (accidentally, of course) doing this, the nice guard sighed heavily but excessed my ticket. I don't know whether that's policy or him being nice.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,784
You can excess a railcard-discounted ticket at a ticket office. So what if you board at a station with {no, a closed} ticket office?
Some ticket offices can do it, but I don't think it is something you are entitled to.

The official line is that you buy a non-discounted ticket and seek a refund on the discounted ticket (if possible).
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
2,793
Honestly, the current situation is a complete farce.

Depending on whose train you are travelling on, a passenger who ignores an open booking office and elects not to purchase a ticket, or travel with the wrong ticket, or forgets a railcard', or whatever, could face:

a) Prosecution
b) Being ejected from the train
c) A Penalty Fare
d) Being sold a full price ticket
e) Being sold whatever ticket they want with any railcard discounts they chose
f) Being sold no ticket at all and travelling free of charge

Is it really any wonder that people:

a) genuinelly get caught out and fined because they thought it was ok not to buy
b) Consistently don't bother to buy a ticket because hey, the train manager (I'm looking at YOU, Cross Country) will just sell them the full range anyway
c) Always 'forget' a railcard

etc etc when it's so completely random?
I completely agree - I mean, it's not even the difference between train operating companies, it's the difference between the actual guards on board! On my route to work which is about 25 minutes, whilst the ticket office has been open at the station I've boarded (there is no ticket vending machine), I've seen two penalty fares be issued in the last few weeks (coincidentally, by the same guard but different days and trains) and I've also seen people buy a ticket using railcards. I don't know how it works on the Intercity routes as I don't use them often at all.

It works two ways though - I've had to argue with a ticket gate operator at Salisbury a couple of years ago - I told her that the station I boarded didn't have a vending machine, that the office was closed, and the guard got off at Westbury and I couldn't find the new one, so therefore this was my first opportunity to buy one and she kept saying "all stations managed by us have ticket vending machine facilities"... I don't think she realised that the station I got on at isn't managed by SWT.

I think information regarding what will happen on the train to people on the train not travelling with a ticket when they have had an opportunity to buy one should be clear and consistent. And that staff should be familiar with all stations that have a direct link to their station, especially if they are involved with ticket checks!
 
Last edited:

pt_mad

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2011
Messages
2,801
Maybe the thing that makes so many people jump to the conclusion that the customer is in the wrong is the fact that they rushed to social media to air their complaint.

No matter who was right or wrong, jumping on a member of staff on the company's facebook page, potentially humiliating that person or organisation without evidence is not on.
What if every guard with a grievance jumped on facebook to attack the customer in question?


As pointed out above the trouble with the passenger rail ticketing system is inconsistency - and this is as widespread as widespread can be.
It is simply not clear whether a customer can buy on the train when the ticket office is closed but there is a working tvm. Some guards allow, others do not. Some TOCs disallow, but guards on train allow.

Likewise there is widespread inconsistency where fare evaders are concerned.

We have had many occasions at our station where non payers have been ejected from the train. Also the fact that many TOCs send out memos, emails and industry updates regarding 'can't pay won't pay' passengers hanging around certain areas proves that TOCs back the idea of do not allow them to travel.

You cannot have a TOC sending out memos of 'Can't pay won't pay passenger identified at Didcot Parkway - do not allow them to board your service' and then next minute comdemn a guard for ejecting someone without a valid ticket.

It seems much more straight forward on the bus network. No ticket no travel. theres no question and no debate. Simple, no money no travel. And yes many bus drivers eject people from the bus for trying to stay on after paid stop.
 

MartinsR

Member
Joined
26 Dec 2012
Messages
78
I completely agree. I honestly wish the industry would get more consistent on ALL ticketing issues including railcards.

It's time we made sure that every passenger who steps onto a train knows exactly what will happen if they are not in posession of a valid ticket for the journey they wish to make and they've boarded at a station with ample purchasing facilities, ie an open ticket office.

Honestly, the current situation is a complete farce.

Depending on whose train you are travelling on, a passenger who ignores an open booking office and elects not to purchase a ticket, or travel with the wrong ticket, or forgets a railcard', or whatever, could face:

a) Prosecution
b) Being ejected from the train
c) A Penalty Fare
d) Being sold a full price ticket
e) Being sold whatever ticket they want with any railcard discounts they chose
f) Being sold no ticket at all and travelling free of charge

Is it really any wonder that people:

a) genuinelly get caught out and fined because they thought it was ok not to buy
b) Consistently don't bother to buy a ticket because hey, the train manager (I'm looking at YOU, Cross Country) will just sell them the full range anyway
c) Always 'forget' a railcard

etc etc when it's so completely random?

Depending on where you are you could attempt to evade a £2 fare and be prosecuted and charged with a criminal offence or you could attempt to evade a £100 fare and simply... be charged the price you should have been anyway with no further action.

Madness.
I agree. Confusion isn't the word.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
7,495
Location
Rail replacement bus cab
There are too many factors going against the ideal of a unilateral rule. Buy before you board is impossible in many cases. Buy at the first practicable opportunity is too open to interpretation. There are staff who don't know the rules or are selective in enforcing them, plus ticket office staff who refuse sales that they shouldn't. Especially where upgrades and excesses are concerned.

Plus the customs around the country are different. I live in South London - the ticket office at my local shack is open until after midnight, barriers are commonplace in the area and the only member of staff on the trains is the driver in the greater majority of cases. There are ticket machines offering tickets from any station to any station. I then go up north, where stations are often ungated and trains have friendly guards who walk through the train asking if anyone wants to buy a ticket. Plus, no Penalty Fares. Arguably, a South Londoner may be more likely to understand the requirement to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. I certainly don't feel that comfortable with the concept of getting on a pay train without a ticket, even if there are no facilities at the station where I boarded.
 

falcon

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
346
I agree. Confusion isn't the word.
It is caused by the fear of individual mangers from the many different TOC who do not want or/and are unable to deal with complaints.Many of those managers have never worked in revenue protection and come from outside the railway industry.

There is a Ticket Examiners hand book produced by ATOC that covers all instances of ticket irregularities and how to deal with them.It took years to compile and was compiled by experts who made the rules based on moral responsibility and it makes sens.

All that has been wrecked by WEAK management some of who have the nerve to call them selves revenue protection managers.

Revenue protection wrecked by idiotic and totally incompetent management.

I can hear the cheers of approval!:rolleyes:
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,008
Arguably, a South Londoner may be more likely to understand the requirement to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. I certainly don't feel that comfortable with the concept of getting on a pay train without a ticket, even if there are no facilities at the station where I boarded.
I'm with you there. I grew up in North London and the rules were simple; buy a ticket (or PTT) before boarding, or risk a PF/prosecution. Nearly all trains were DOO, so you knew there wouldn't be a conductor on-board. It would never have occurred to me to board a train without having bought a ticket first - and many's the time I've missed a train due to a queue at the ticket machine.

When I moved up north, I was amazed to find that; a) conductors would sell tickets on board and b) they'd do so even where people boarded at stations like Sunderland, which had ticket machines and a ticket office. Again, I would still buy my ticket before boarding every time, almost expecting that I'd get a PF if I didn't. It becomes an automatic habit.
 

CyrusWuff

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,294
There is a Ticket Examiners hand book produced by ATOC that covers all instances of ticket irregularities and how to deal with them.It took years to compile and was compiled by experts who made the rules based on moral responsibility and it makes sens.
Except the Ticket Examiners Handbook, like the Retail Manuals, Rail Directory for Travel Agents, Newsrail Express and printed Fares Manuals, was withdrawn a number of years ago when the content was moved to the online Fares and Retail Publications Portal (subsequently renamed "The Manual").

This has also now been withdrawn (as of 1st February) and replaced with the National Rail Enquiries Knowledgebase....which can only be accessed from selected IP addresses.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
8,036
Location
Yorkshire
Arguably, a South Londoner may be more likely to understand the requirement to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. I certainly don't feel that comfortable with the concept of getting on a pay train without a ticket, even if there are no facilities at the station where I boarded.
Having spent some time living at stations that are staffed most of the time, I am very used to purchasing before boarding. Having moved house about 18 months ago, my local station is now a local shack with zilch facilities whatsoever from a ticketing front. I still feel somewhat uneasy boarding having not already got a ticket (not helped by the reception one gets at Huddersfield where the gateline people immediately make the assumption that one has got off the similarly timed TPE arrival and are trying to pull a fast one :roll:)
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
14,721
Location
Manchester
There certainly is a cultural element to it: my local station has a ticket office with very restricted opening hours and more recently a card only TVM. As I don't travel in the weekday peak the only time I have a ticket before boarding is when I've bought it or collected it already - and I have no qualms about this. About half the time I'll get a ticket from the guard otherwise form G4S the other end.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,363
Location
Liverpool
I was a little worried last Sunday. I was catching the train and when I walked in to my local Northern station a lad was stood at the ticket window. As I walked through he asked me if the ticket office was open on a Sunday as he had been stood at the window for some ten minutes and no one was about. I told him it was open as the shutters would be down and the computers off if it wasn't but that he would be fine if he got on at the back door of the train where the guard would probably be and bought a ticket off him after telling him the situation right away. He did this and was fine but I would have been gutted if he got in any bother.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top