Two possible reasons:
1. Bystander effect.
2. People actually being quite glad that a fare evader screaming at the conductor and disturbing their journey was being removed from the train.
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TPE kicks woman and child off train
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1. Bystander effect.
2. People actually being quite glad that a fare evader screaming at the conductor and disturbing their journey was being removed from the train.
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Their are so many wrongs in this thread it really does make me despair of the standards of railway staff and their training these days.
Just a couple of points:
The staff would have been justified in asking the passenger to leave at a staffed station. They were not justified in asking the passenger to leave at an unstaffed station or to interefere with her belongings.
It is not legal to excess a railcard discounted ticket. The rules state that the passenger should be treated as if no ticket is held. If anyones going about issuing excesses then they are risking their job doing it and just playing into the hand of those who chose to cheat the railway.
I don't buy the shouts for 'discretion' to be shown. Yes, we all make mistakes. I've made many and some pretty spectacular ones too but I've paid for them all, and some of them quite dearly. If we never had negative conseqences when we made mistakes then we would never learn from them (or worse, we would learn to exploit a weakness and then no one would win).
I see so many conductors these days getting all high and mighty on trains and just don't get them. Their are clearly defined procedures in place for dealing with fare evasion/ticketless travel/forgotten railcards etc -
1. Attempt to obtain a valid ticket
2. Attempt to obtain a fare
3. Attempt to obtain the passengers name and address - in this case you can now pass the buck (even if its blatantly false) to the TOC and its up to them how to proceed. Hey presto it's been dealt with acceptably and you no longer need to worry about it ever again and you dont need to worry about your job being potentially on the line.
4. If the above all fails contact BTP and pass the buck to them.
In this day and age of intenet booking, TVM's and gatelines I'm now finding passengers on a daily basis (every train on some jobs) who have 'forgotten' their railcards and an ever increasing number who complain because every other conductor only excessed them (Itself suggesting an even bigger problem!)
Just a couple of points:
The staff would have been justified in asking the passenger to leave at a staffed station. They were not justified in asking the passenger to leave at an unstaffed station or to interefere with her belongings.
It is not legal to excess a railcard discounted ticket. The rules state that the passenger should be treated as if no ticket is held. If anyones going about issuing excesses then they are risking their job doing it and just playing into the hand of those who chose to cheat the railway.
I don't buy the shouts for 'discretion' to be shown. Yes, we all make mistakes. I've made many and some pretty spectacular ones too but I've paid for them all, and some of them quite dearly. If we never had negative conseqences when we made mistakes then we would never learn from them (or worse, we would learn to exploit a weakness and then no one would win).
I see so many conductors these days getting all high and mighty on trains and just don't get them. Their are clearly defined procedures in place for dealing with fare evasion/ticketless travel/forgotten railcards etc -
1. Attempt to obtain a valid ticket
2. Attempt to obtain a fare
3. Attempt to obtain the passengers name and address - in this case you can now pass the buck (even if its blatantly false) to the TOC and its up to them how to proceed. Hey presto it's been dealt with acceptably and you no longer need to worry about it ever again and you dont need to worry about your job being potentially on the line.
4. If the above all fails contact BTP and pass the buck to them.
In this day and age of intenet booking, TVM's and gatelines I'm now finding passengers on a daily basis (every train on some jobs) who have 'forgotten' their railcards and an ever increasing number who complain because every other conductor only excessed them (Itself suggesting an even bigger problem!)
It is legal, guards can show discretion if they feel it is appropriate.
I am not going to judge whether discretion should or shouldn't have been shown, but a Guard can make that judgement call.
They can complain if they want but you have no less right to charge them for a new ticket.
transmanche
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I haven't checked the maths, but I read it that the passenger purchased a tickets for themselves and their child using a Families & Friends railcard because this was 70p cheaper than buying an adult ticket. (The child didn't need a ticket as they were under 5, but sometimes it cheaper to buy them a discounted one to qualify for the overall F&F discount.)
the difference i was being asked to pay was to make it up the full fare ammount which was around 11 pounds if i remember correctly. The 70 pence i saved at the beginning was the difference between booking them online in advance either with or without a railcard. That what i mean by i needn't have bothered. In hindsight if i hadn't used the railcard i would never have needed it on the train and would only have had to pay 70pence more.
I took the complaint to passenger focus, they could not do anything as with no further evidence due to the cctv being wiped, it was my word against the conductors. Months after i went to passeger focus, i went on facebook as a final effort to get my side across.
I then got a final reply from FTPE saying that the conducter had told a different story to me. The conductors report said that i chose not to pay because i did not want to, refused to give me details and left the train willingly.
In actual fact i could not pay because i did not have the money. I cried and begged for her to either take my details or let my partner pay at the other end. I left the train reluctantly only after she took my belongings off at the platform but still tried pleading with the conductor and driver to stay on the train.
So there is no case of me being disruptive - if i had i'm sure the conducter would have said this in her report. According to her i just didn't want to pay, refused an unpaid fares notice and got up and left the train, allowing her to take my bags.
This is all untrue, which is my point - she lied to her superiors in the official investigations, whereas i'm not the one lying. I presume on the train she thought i was lying and treated me as such, yet as it turns out i'm the honest one and she had to tell lies to cover her back - not the actions of somebody who has done everything by the book (as some of you still claim)
I sent my original complaint to FTPE less than 24 hours after the incident, yet they claim they didn't receive it untill well after 7 days later, once the CCTV had been wiped. They said it is important to act immediately if CCTV is needed. If sending in a complaint by email less than 24 hours after the incident isn't quick enough, then how is anybody ever going get CCTV who needs it?
Anyway thats what happened - so i got nowhere and just had to accept that. Its only the other day i found this thread and was upset at some of the comments, particularly the ones that tend to assume its me that's telling the lies when i know it was the conductor.
Like i said, procedure was not followed but because of her lying about it, there was nothing that could be done.
I took the complaint to passenger focus, they could not do anything as with no further evidence due to the cctv being wiped, it was my word against the conductors. Months after i went to passeger focus, i went on facebook as a final effort to get my side across.
I then got a final reply from FTPE saying that the conducter had told a different story to me. The conductors report said that i chose not to pay because i did not want to, refused to give me details and left the train willingly.
In actual fact i could not pay because i did not have the money. I cried and begged for her to either take my details or let my partner pay at the other end. I left the train reluctantly only after she took my belongings off at the platform but still tried pleading with the conductor and driver to stay on the train.
So there is no case of me being disruptive - if i had i'm sure the conducter would have said this in her report. According to her i just didn't want to pay, refused an unpaid fares notice and got up and left the train, allowing her to take my bags.
This is all untrue, which is my point - she lied to her superiors in the official investigations, whereas i'm not the one lying. I presume on the train she thought i was lying and treated me as such, yet as it turns out i'm the honest one and she had to tell lies to cover her back - not the actions of somebody who has done everything by the book (as some of you still claim)
I sent my original complaint to FTPE less than 24 hours after the incident, yet they claim they didn't receive it untill well after 7 days later, once the CCTV had been wiped. They said it is important to act immediately if CCTV is needed. If sending in a complaint by email less than 24 hours after the incident isn't quick enough, then how is anybody ever going get CCTV who needs it?
Anyway thats what happened - so i got nowhere and just had to accept that. Its only the other day i found this thread and was upset at some of the comments, particularly the ones that tend to assume its me that's telling the lies when i know it was the conductor.
Like i said, procedure was not followed but because of her lying about it, there was nothing that could be done.
dk1
Veteran Member
Probably go more for 2. People, myself included get so fed up with bad attitude & those trying to avoid payment. I would never offer to help anyone else with their fare. Seen it so many times & most are not genuine.
Also, i was sat in the disabled passengers and buggies section which has a camera directly above where i was sitting. There could have been no clearer view (albeit without sound probably) of what was taking place. I was confident that even without sound, the CCTV would have shown the events taking place, particularly her taking my bags off with me shaking my head trying to stop her.
Are you saying that you were recorded on camera resisting a lawful order (to leave the train) from an authorised representative of the railway company?
It's probably a good thing for you that the CCTV wasn't available. Who knows, maybe even a sympathetic person at TPE reviewed it and, realising it would help you incriminate yourself in a criminal trespass case, deliberately let it slide for your own good.
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Monty
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It's unlikely the footage even exists anymore, if TPE's CCTV on it's 185s is anything like SWT's 450s then the footage is deleted after a relatively short period of time if it is not downloaded from the unit. Video takes up so much data that unit's hard drive wouldn't be able to store more that a couple of days worth of footage if that..
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no point me saying anymore, everyone has their own judgements to cast. I just wanted to get my side across, which was that the conductor behaved in such a way that she knew she had done wrong by the company, and that's why she had to lie about what happened. If she was confident she had done the right thing, she would not have needed to lie.
I'm sure a lot of people have a nice little picture in your heads of the type of person that i am, and what a saint this conductor must have been. Well, i can't do anything about that - that's not my issue. However i've done all i can to give you a bigger picture of what happened other than what was posted on facebook (which is all you had previously to 'judge' me on.)
I'm big on my morals, i'm big on customer service, and i'm big on kindness and compassion. Thanks for all your replies, this will be my last post.
I'm sure a lot of people have a nice little picture in your heads of the type of person that i am, and what a saint this conductor must have been. Well, i can't do anything about that - that's not my issue. However i've done all i can to give you a bigger picture of what happened other than what was posted on facebook (which is all you had previously to 'judge' me on.)
I'm big on my morals, i'm big on customer service, and i'm big on kindness and compassion. Thanks for all your replies, this will be my last post.
Monty
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There are always two sides to every story, and don't get me wrong I don't think the conductor is a saint, she's human as are you and I and at the end of the day we are not infallible. Personally I believe that the guard should have the right to detrain someone if the reason is good enough, I can't say however I would of done what she had done. But then I'm making that judgement on what has been said here.
bb21
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I also wonder whether the figures were incorrectly remembered since it was so long ago. £8.20 full adult fare would translate into £5.40 discounted adult and £1.55 discounted child fare for a F&F Railcard holder, so a total of £6.95.
Not doubting the account of the event, just a bit curious.
dave55uk
Member
I would have liked to see a photograph of Lucy's railcard.
It might be a case of "I'll order online and say I have a railcard, and if I get caught I'll say I forgot it".
It might be a case of "I'll order online and say I have a railcard, and if I get caught I'll say I forgot it".
Sorry, but no. At a ticket office it is a grey area. On a train the Manual is 100% clear: a passenger holding a Railcard-discounted ticket who is unable to show a valid Railcard is to be treated as though no ticket is held. If they purchase a new ticket, the old one is to be endorsed "Railcard not shown" and it can be refunded if eligible.
Despite this, the guard was good enough to offer the passenger the option to pay the difference, which she declined.
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ClevedonYellow
Member
It is not about who you are, What you look like or how you behave. It is all about you not having a valid ticket!
It is the same as you cannot get away with stealing anything from a shop and saying that they have a prepaid card at home!
The same should and would be done to everybody else. In fact the Virgin trains guard on the program Keeping Britians railways on track, kicked somebody off the train for not having a railcard.
I suggest that you leave the matter now Lucy as FTPE can start legal proceedings against you for fare evasion.
Did you write a complaint stating the facts?
Did you get a copy of the response the guard made to her employer in writing?You are entitled to one.
Did you even read any of this thread? If you had you would have known she complained within 24 hours of the incident, which it was then claimed wasnt received until 7 days later by which time the CCTV footage had already been wiped.
How very convenient.
Seems to me that a little common sense from the conducted was all that was required to make a difference here. Just a little but instead she decided to treat the passenger like the anti-christ and kick her and her child off at an unstaffed station.
Mailman
Or maybe a little bit of responsibility from the passenger and this situation would never have occured. Remember we ONLY have one side of the whole story and whilst I am not calling the lady in question a liar without both sides then we can not form a reasonable opinion of the situation.
Remember, she did not have the correct ticket for her journey and the guard correctly asked her to leave the train as she could not afford a new one. Thats the only facts we know. The guard, IMO, did the correct thing. Maybe if it was late at night then I bet you any money the situation would be different but it wasnt. Just because she has a child doesnt mean that the world should bend over backwards for what is her mistake, both not having the railcard, not having any money and not having battery/credit on her phone.
ANorthernGuard
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As a guard I would never kick a woman and child off a train. However it is obvious that the Passenger was mainly in the wrong and the Conductor did not use common sense so as bad as each other in my book.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I am very grateful to lucyc2014 for coming on here and letting us have her side of the sorry incident. It's all to easy for people to jump to conclusions when only one side of a story is presented.
I've been a little surprised that some people have also been so hasty to reach a conclusion, and a judgemental one at that, even now that we have lucyc2014's report. And even when I put the incidents of that day to one side, I find it extremely regrettable that it has left such a distressing legacy of anguish after all this time.
Having said that, I am sympathetic to this assessment:
I've been a little surprised that some people have also been so hasty to reach a conclusion, and a judgemental one at that, even now that we have lucyc2014's report. And even when I put the incidents of that day to one side, I find it extremely regrettable that it has left such a distressing legacy of anguish after all this time.
Having said that, I am sympathetic to this assessment:
But wherever blame might have been correctly apportioned two years ago, it is worrying when such incidents leave deep scars of anxiety which are out of all proportion to the incident, and I would say that whether it was a scar of guilt for wrongdoing, of resetment at a personal injustice, or remorse at not having done something at the appropriate time.
PaxVobiscum
Established Member
Amen. And that would seem a suitable point on which to close this thread again, especially since lucyc2014 has stated she will not be saying any more on the subject here.
What you fail to mention is the fact that it is all too easy to jump on Facebook/Twitter and attempt to garner support for what is percieved to be an injustice........a fact I was reminded of earlier on today when I was discussing another guard who was put in a very similar position, only to be found later completely innocent of any wrongdoing.....
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Would you kick a man and child off a train?
ANorthernGuard
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it would depend on the circumstances and the age of the child etc. We have a duty of care to anyone we feel is "vulnerable".
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I didn't fail to mention it.
To do so would have been to assume that it applies to this thread, and whether it does or not I have no idea. My point stands in the face of your challenge - that any such 'support' from an internet forum might have been appropriate 2 years ago, if indeed it was being sought and if indeed it was surrogate support for the outcome the passenger wanted.
I have no reason to believe that was true then and it is even less reason to find it relevant now.
Indeed. And following the challenge to my own contribution on this, I'll say no more on the subject either.
Amen.
So certain people get away with things others wouldn't?
ANorthernGuard
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Yep, Thats life. Deal with it and move on! Joking apart, as proven by James street We can be held responsible for other peoples actions (or part of) and I for one would not like to be dragged through the courts thankyou
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