TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[ainsworth74]

I think we're in danger here of wandering off onto a wider discussion about the various issues with reliability that TPE have been having of late. Whilst a discussion of failures regarding Mk5s would obviously be on topic in this thread however it feels like we're about to head down a much broader avenue. Therefore I would request that anyone wishing to discuss wider TPE issues do so on an existing thread.

 

[Randomer]

So I finally managed to catch a Mk5A set with 68027 propelling yesterday. I think my impressions line up with what others have said:

- Dwell times extended but once people on easily able to take 2 X 185 of people at Leeds due to previous service being cancelled.
- As much as I like table seating I can see a lot of them going for more airline as capacity is needed in standard.
- Window alignment seemingly not thought about at all in Standard.

Finally TPE might want to make it more obvious that every seat in standard has a plug and USB to share, like the Class 800 small plug between seat signs.

I got quizzical looks when I plugged my phone in and the people sitting opposite me said "Oh I didn't realize they had sockets, not a very obvious place is it."

 

[ic31420]

Can anyone give an idea of how many traincrew are needed for a full mk 5 operation and details how many have been trained / remain to be trained?

How many daily sets get used? I'd expect to see an ever increasing amount of sets as crews become conversant and to maintain knowledge but that doesn't seem the case.

 

[sjpowermac]

As a passenger (nowadays) I would say none, and I bet most other customers would give the same answer. What is your answer to the question?
I too am not interested in classes of trains, although I do look forward to a trans-Pennine journey on one of these fabled trains that doesn't have a big diesel engine thrashing away under every coach. In fact, I would like to go on something (anything) more than 3 cars long that I can be sure of getting into at Leeds.
I have no idea when it might actually come to pass though. We were promised loco-hauled trains a couple of years ago, but TPE decided that it was beneath their dignity to honour a franchise commitment. I have yet to see a train longer than 3 cars (other than one flashing past in the opposite direction - which might well have been running empty) and am dreading coming home over the Pennines on 23rd Dec. I can go out via the Bentham line, but will probably give in and try the "direct route" home.

I can’t instantly think of any trains running on the network that have not caused any delay minutes. Can you?

I’m flattered that you’ve taken my list of cancellations as definitive. I must point out one final time that it’s simply what’s publicly available, rather than industry knowledge, and the reality is likely to be even better than what I’ve listed.

Don’t just take my word though, you’ve now had two people with far better access to information than I do give you some figures. You’ve now moved to the notion that anything less than 100% reliability for a new train is not acceptable. You asked me what I think is acceptable and I’d say the current performance, especially for a new train, is excellent.

On several occasions recently I’ve had a master shot lined up of the locomotive only for @D6700 to bound from the train and ruin it, so yes, they do use the trains

As @tpjm has mentioned, I myself am using and enjoying the trains, I’ll readily admit perhaps just a little too much

On a more serious note, I was fortunate to travel on the very first Nova 3 service. There were several people present who had clearly been involved with the project and what shone through was the enormous pride that they take in the train. It’s the same story when having a quick chat with drivers, conductors or catering hosts. In addition, I’ve yet to travel on a Nova 3 (or Nova 1) without hearing positive comments from passengers.

I wish you a very pleasant journey over the Pennines and hope that you get to sample one of the Nova trains.

 

[sjpowermac]

Can anyone give an idea of how many traincrew are needed for a full mk 5 operation and details how many have been trained / remain to be trained?

How many daily sets get used? I'd expect to see an ever increasing amount of sets as crews become conversant and to maintain knowledge but that doesn't seem the case.

Two diagrams a day currently, scheduled to move to four diagrams from the new timetable.

As I understand it, Manchester crews were trained first, Scarborough crews currently being trained.

I don’t work for TPE, so I can’t answer your question about numbers.

As for ‘ever increasing’ number of sets, as I understand it priority has been given to getting crews trained on Nova 1 and Nova 2 sets, this being due to franchise commitments (extending Liverpool-Newcastle trains to Edinburgh, and Class 350s going off lease). As such, the Nova 3 sets have taken a bit of a back seat.

Hope that helps

 

[Sleeperwaking]

As a passenger (nowadays) I would say none, and I bet most other customers would give the same answer. What is your answer to the question?

I checked back at the New Train Reliability table for Period 6 2019 (approx. August - September) from the latest issue of Modern Railways I have to hand. I've only compared number of Technical Incidents (TINs) as I don't know how many miles were operated over the month. I guess the 68+Mk5A sets will start appearing in the next version of the table as they went into service in August, although the figures from the start of service period will probably be worse than the ones I've used here which are from the past month.

The only comparable fleet type would be the GWR HST sets (2 locos + 4 coaches, recently modified to comply with accessibility regulations). They operated 2 sets in that period which clocked up 10 TINs over 99,452 miles (9,945 miles per TIN). If the Mark 5A clocked up only 3 TINs in the last month, that's doing really well in comparison.
Looking at the table as a whole, only three fleets out of 18 reported <10 TINs for that period. So again, on that metric, 3 TINs is pretty darn great.
In terms of TINs per unit, the Mark 5As are probably in the top six fleets (assuming at least 3 sets in service - if only 2 sets, then they drop down to 11th).

Whatever way you look at it, 3 TINs is a very low number for a new fleet.

 

[tpjm]

On a more serious note, I was fortunate to travel on the very first Nova 3 service. There were several people present who had clearly been involved with the project and what shone through was the enormous pride that they take in the train.

One of those was MEEE!

 

[keith1879]

More seats overall yes but if you take into account that 2x185s would have 2 1st class carriages it will still leave 4 carriages for standard class.

The total standard class seats in a double 185 is 334 with 30 first...a Nova 3 has 261 standard and 30 first so the double 185 set has a substantially greater standard class seating capacity. So long as it actually is a double.........

 

[978wta]

The total standard class seats in a double 185 is 334 with 30 first...a Nova 3 has 261 standard and 30 first so the double 185 set has a substantially greater standard class seating capacity. So long as it actually is a double.........

thanks for that. For some reason I thought the first class in a 185 was a complete carriage.

 

[D6700]

On several occasions recently I’ve had a master shot lined up of the locomotive only for @D6700 to bound from the train and ruin it, so yes, they do use the trains

You're safe for a few more days yet - but make sure you post any pictures in the right thread!

 

[nigelsporne]

No Mark 5As in 4 hours at Victoria today. TPE services in a mess with countless cancellations.

 

[Class455]

Apologies if I’ve missed anything here but when are the 68’s and MK5’s due to start working down to Redcar Central, and has spare DT 12814 been delivered yet?

 

[sjpowermac]

Apologies if I’ve missed anything here but when are the 68’s and MK5’s due to start working down to Redcar Central, and has spare DT 12814 been delivered yet?

DT12814 is definitely in the country. I think it was transported from Portbury by road, possibly to Crewe, but I’m not 100% on that.

I don’t think there’s an official date as yet for passenger services with Nova 3 to Redcar, though two sets have now visited on test runs.

 

[Ben Bow]

Do you have dates for the Redcar test runs? I have one (02.12.19), but not the other. Thanks.

DT12814 is definitely in the country. I think it was transported from Portbury by road, possibly to Crewe, but I’m not 100% on that.

I don’t think there’s an official date as yet for passenger services with Nova 3 to Redcar, though two sets have now visited on test runs.

 

[sjpowermac]

Do you have dates for the Redcar test runs? I have one (02.12.19), but not the other. Thanks.

I should have put ‘I think two sets have visited’, apologies.

68027 ‘Splendid’ plus TP09 were booked to make the trip on Thursday 12.12.2019 and 5A90/5A94 both ran. I didn’t actually see the workings, (and my usual source at York was busy riding HSTs!), so there is a possibility they were a 185.

5A90
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69250/2019-12-12/detailed

5A94
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69381/2019-12-12/detailed

 

[sjpowermac]

On the first day of the new timetable there have been three Nova 3 sets in service (the Sunday service moves to four sets from 22.12.2019).

68019 and TP13 suffered a graffiti attack overnight at Scarborough with the front of the loco and the first class coach daubed.

Timekeeping today seemed much improved, with some trains even arriving early.

Locos and stock in operation were:
68019 plus TP08
68022 plus TP13
68028 plus TP12

There were some cancellations due to a shortage of train crew, a York-Scarborough and return trip, along with a York-Liverpool and return.

 

[sjpowermac]

One of those was MEEE!

That first train was fantastic, I hope that you enjoyed it too. I didn’t mind at all when some gent asked me to move seats to make way for a group that had worked on the project

By the way, I notice that timekeeping has been generally very good today, I even saw one train arriving 7 early into York.

I’m just waiting for someone to start a thread: ‘I often see the Nova 3 trains arriving early, surely there’s room to tighten up the timetable’... You know it’s going to happen

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m just waiting for someone to start a thread: ‘I often see the Nova 3 trains arriving early, surely there’s room to tighten up the timetable’... You know it’s going to happen

They could always not do, and, you know, make the service punctual. That makes so much sense that it won't happen.

 

[tpjm]

I’m just waiting for someone to start a thread: ‘I often see the Nova 3 trains arriving early, surely there’s room to tighten up the timetable’... You know it’s going to happen

I think an aim of the Dec TT is to make that happen. In places like Manchester, a timetable that is forgiving can be a god-send. I've been watching today and it would seem that most PPM failures are being caused by a short-termination due to lack of crew - not general late running. Given that we know crew is a weak spot at the moment, that surely paves the way for a reliable timetable post January once all the crews are trained. Then, even when it does go wrong, the performance from the rolling stock and padding time should help to keep a reasonably good level of service.

 

[Tim_UK]

On the first day of the new timetable there have been three Nova 3 sets in service (the Sunday service moves to four sets from 22.12.2019).



Locos and stock in operation were:
68019 plus TP08
68022 plus TP13
68028 plus TP12

I witnessed the scrum today to get on the 16:30 from Victoria to Scarborough. I think 2 previous services cancelled. The platform was pretty busy.

Lord president.

There were actually seats left. People were stood in the vestibules but there were seats. These trains eat crowds.

 

[Mordac]

I witnessed the scrum today to get on the 16:30 from Victoria to Scarborough. I think 2 previous services cancelled. The platform was pretty busy.

Lord president.

There were actually seats left. People were stood in the vestibules but there were seats. These trains eat crowds.

Jacob Rees-Mogg was there too?

 

[Ben Bow]

I think an aim of the Dec TT is to make that happen. In places like Manchester, a timetable that is forgiving can be a god-send. I've been watching today and it would seem that most PPM failures are being caused by a short-termination due to lack of crew - not general late running. Given that we know crew is a weak spot at the moment, that surely paves the way for a reliable timetable post January once all the crews are trained. Then, even when it does go wrong, the performance from the rolling stock and padding time should help to keep a reasonably good level of service.

Two points:

1) "all crews" for 68's & mk.5's will certainly not be trained by the end of January, training for York crews is being pushed further back.
2) the ratio of trained crews to diagrams is insufficient, so as more crews are trained the number of diagrams increases, there's currently far too much reliance on rest day working, hence the extreme unreliability of services like the 22.46 ex Scarborough which only ran once last week. I see the 02.42 from the Airport was cancelled this morning, another service unpopular with rest day workers for obvious reasons.

 

[SteveP29]

No Mark 5As in 4 hours at Victoria today. TPE services in a mess with countless cancellations.

I'm due to have my first experience of TPE from Edinburgh to Newcastle on the 28th. Ho ware these services working so far?
Apologies, I realise Mk5 probably aren't the Nova 1 trains, so might be posting in the wrong place.

 

[ainsworth74]

Apologies if I’ve missed anything here but when are the 68’s and MK5’s due to start working down to Redcar Central

Not before February from what I've seen though I'd imagine that will be subject to further slippage.

 

[delt1c]

Surely cant be worse than a 1st Gen Cravens at 70mph on jointed track

 

[Ben Bow]

I should have put ‘I think two sets have visited’, apologies.

68027 ‘Splendid’ plus TP09 were booked to make the trip on Thursday 12.12.2019 and 5A90/5A94 both ran. I didn’t actually see the workings, (and my usual source at York was busy riding HSTs!), so there is a possibility they were a 185.

5A90
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69250/2019-12-12/detailed

5A94
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69381/2019-12-12/detailed

Apologies its taken me a while to respond, the runs on Thursday 12.12 were definitely a 185, I viewed 5A94 returning to York myself. So just the one mk.5 set, so far.

 

[Ben Bow]

Surely cant be worse than a 1st Gen Cravens at 70mph on jointed track

Its not that the ride is universally bad, as such. Firstly, it varies between sets, even between individual bogies on the same coach. I was on 68027 last week and one end of coach D rode very smoothly and quietly, the other end was very "fidgety" with lots of banging and rumbling going. This seems to be an issue across the new CAF fleets which I have so far experienced - class 195 DMU, mk.5a day stock, and mk.5 sleeper stock - they've all been the same, not rough, just "unrefined" is the best way I would describe it. The biggest concern though on the mk.5a's is the way the suspension crashes onto the stops when a dip in track is encountered, e.g. "wet beds" - it doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's very alarming.

 

[sjpowermac]

Apologies its taken me a while to respond, the runs on Thursday 12.12 were definitely a 185, I viewed 5A94 returning to York myself. So just the one mk.5 set, so far.

Many thanks for that, greatly appreciated.

 

[sjpowermac]

With the move to four booked diagrams, I thought it might be helpful to update on the sets accepted.


Nova 3 sets accepted (current loco in brackets)
TP09 12.04.2019 (68027)
TP06 15.05.2019 (68030?)
TP04 04.07.2019 (68021)
TP11 11.07.2019 (68026)
TP12 03.10.2019 (68028)
TP13 22.11.2019 (68019)
TP08 06.12.2019 (68022)

TP04 was originally paired with 68025.
TP12 was originally paired with 68030 but this was switched over the weekend.

Of the active sets, TP04 stands out as a bit of an oddity, not having worked since 28.10.2019, whilst the other sets have rotated round.

Fault Free Running
TP07 (arrived in the UK 26.06.2019)
With 68023.

Awaiting Fault Free Running
TP10 (arrived in the UK 23.10.2019)

Stored MOD Longtown
TP01
TP02
TP03
TP05

Stored
TP02 13.08.2019
TP05 13.08.2019
TP01 23.08.2019
TP03 12.09.2019

 

[sjpowermac]

The set currently undergoing fault free running is TP07 with 68023.

Here are the workings to date:

TP07 FFR
68023 plus UP07 (TP07)
Tuesday 10.12.2019
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Crewe
11:33 Crewe-Carlisle

Wednesday 11.12.2019
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Bletchley
15:33 Bletchley-MID

Thursday 12.12.2019
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Bletchley
15:33 Bletchley-MID

Friday 13.12.2019
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Bletchley
15:33 Bletchley-MID

Monday 16.12.2019
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Crewe
12:30 Crewe-MID