TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[gimmea50anyday]

Yeah, 2×20m on P5 and cannot realistically be extended with the bridge being just beyond the platform ends but P6 will accomodate 3×23m by the skin of a Rizla. Its a bit hair raising when we stop there for engineering diversion turnarounds

Realistically now that I have just had another look having just despatched a train from there P7 will only give 2x20m with realignment of the line into P8. It could serve an extension of P8 instead far better than reinstating P7

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah, 2×20m on P5 and cannot realistically be extended with the bridge being just beyond the platform ends but P6 will accomodate 3×23m by the skin of a Rizla. Its a bit hair raising when we stop there for engineering diversion turnarounds

Realistically now that I have just had another look having just despatched a train from there P7 will only give 2x20m with realignment of the line into P8. It could serve an extension of P8 instead far better than reinstating P7

Would there be potential for making a more useable P7 once the signal box is decommissioned? That's assuming it isn't included in the Grade-II* listing of the island platform buildings of course.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

sorry to be moany but whenever i see coaches being built for britain abroad my heart sinks a little deeper. No need for it at all.

Just hope the seating is comfortable

Not entirely sure these look the most comfortable seats ever...

 

[Clansman]

Not entirely sure these look the most comfortable seats ever...

Another TOC using unmaximised seat bases. What a shock.

TPE are probably the forefront of such crimes against comfort. So much comfort going to waste, although having said that, they look a slight improvement to what they already have - but still.

Someone give these seats a dosage of Red Bull...

 

[RichmondCommu]

For that reason it would not surprise me to see them being ordered for another franchise bid.

Really? In all fairness I can't think of another franchise which would be interested in brand new loco hauled stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? In all fairness I can't think of another franchise which would be interested in brand new loco hauled stock.

ATW is the one that springs immediately to mind if the price is right.

 

[Clansman]

Really? In all fairness I can't think of another franchise which would be interested in brand new loco hauled stock.

Scotrail might be a contender come 2030

 

[RichmondCommu]

ATW is the one that springs immediately to mind if the price is right.

As opposed to buying DMU's which would be cheaper to run?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Scotrail might be a contender come 2030

Would they not be better with bi-modes?

 

[Clansman]

Would they not be better with bi-modes?

Probably so, but their HST acquirement says it all in my opinion.

Would've been a better long term option to order bi-mode Mk5s just now as the Scottish Government are already investing in Mk5s for the Sleeper, with TPE ordering a variant which includes a passenger DVT (or whatever they are called). All Scotrail could've done was follow TPE, except maybe fitting the Mk5s with electric equipment and a panto in the driving coach for running on electric, and using a locomotive to push-pull the train on non-electrified sections - whilst storing power on electrified sections to improve efficiency. Easier said than done, but as the Mk5s are in mass production right now for the Sleeper, Transport Scotland have missed an opportunity there in my opinion.

I can't see them going for any underfloor engine stock given it was one of the many factors which seen them look for replacements for their Class 170s to create a better Intercity experience.

 

[shaun]

Not entirely sure these look the most comfortable seats ever...

They're the same as the ones being used in the Class 80x. Not tried them personally, but they don't look too bad. Preferable to a cramped Voyager seat at least! They seem to be an evolution of the Class 395 seat, which I found to be quite comfortable when I last travelled on one.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I can't see them going for any underfloor engine stock given it was one of the many factors which seen them look for replacements for their Class 170s to create a better Intercity experience.

I'm always interested in this kind of opinion as I'm not entirely sure that the average rail user is really bothered by the under floor engines.

 

[CosherB]

Probably so, but their HST acquirement says it all in my opinion.

Would've been a better long term option to order bi-mode Mk5s just now as the Scottish Government are already investing in Mk5s for the Sleeper, with TPE ordering a variant which includes a passenger DVT (or whatever they are called). All Scotrail could've done was follow TPE, except maybe fitting the Mk5s with electric equipment and a panto in the driving coach for running on electric, and using a locomotive to push-pull the train on non-electrified sections - whilst storing power on electrified sections to improve efficiency. Easier said than done, but as the Mk5s are in mass production right now for the Sleeper, Transport Scotland have missed an opportunity there in my opinion.

I can't see them going for any underfloor engine stock given it was one of the many factors which seen them look for replacements for their Class 170s to create a better Intercity experience.

What is a bi-mode Mk5? It's LHCS!

Just get a 195 or 331.

 

[Clansman]

What is a bi-mode Mk5? It's LHCS!

Just get a 195 or 331.

Don't even know what that stands for lol, my jargon comes and goes sometimes.

By bi-mode Mk5s, I mean a similar instance to the TPE order, but with a panto on the Mk5 driving trailer (well, electric loco?) to support bi-mode operation, with the right traction equipment under each Mk5 coach to draw power from overhead wires and into the diesel loco for more efficient use on non-electrified lines.

In terms of 195s and 331s, to that I say; ... there goes the purpose of a proper Intercity service in Scotland in that case.

 

[NotATrainspott]

There is no current requirement for bi-mode on the ScotRail InterCity routes. When the HSTs come to the end of their life, Glasgow to Aberdeen will be either completely or partially electrified, so bi-mode will be necessary. LHCS would have a very hard time being as fast on the InterCity services as the HSTs are, so I think a bi-mode multiple unit of some description would be in order. Stadler would be able to produce such a unit today if required by mixing and matching the components it will use for the Anglia sets.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Really? In all fairness I can't think of another franchise which would be interested in brand new loco hauled stock.

Looking forward to working these personally....

Think the old school class 50 bashers are secretly getting excited too. Some of the 68s have 50 names and there are some cracking pubs on the TPE route too!

 

[Clansman]

There is no current requirement for bi-mode on the ScotRail InterCity routes. When the HSTs come to the end of their life, Glasgow to Aberdeen will be either completely or partially electrified, so bi-mode will be necessary. LHCS would have a very hard time being as fast on the InterCity services as the HSTs are, so I think a bi-mode multiple unit of some description would be in order. Stadler would be able to produce such a unit today if required by mixing and matching the components it will use for the Anglia sets.

Although when the HSTs are in full service, Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane will be electrified, so in terms of looking to the future, bi-modes would ensure long life rolling stock where it's run power and efficiency can catch up immediately with electrification projects as they progress. In terms of future rolling stock being Bi Mode multiple units, obviously we don't know. But given the fact that Transport Scotland have opted for a franchise bid which uses 40-year-old Intercity trains of the highest quality, I highly doubt that multiple units could meet in terms of passenger comfort. Hence why I believe Mk5s similar to TPE with a few changes, would be the best option for Scotrail both operational wise, comfort wise and maintenance wise.

Can someone give me a jargon buster on these acronyms?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Can someone give me a jargon buster on these acronyms?

HST stands for High Speed Train.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Although when the HSTs are in full service, Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane will be electrified, so in terms of looking to the future, bi-modes would ensure long life rolling stock where it's run power and efficiency can catch up immediately with electrification projects as they progress. In terms of future rolling stock being Bi Mode multiple units, obviously we don't know. But given the fact that Transport Scotland have opted for a franchise bid which uses 40-year-old Intercity trains of the highest quality, I highly doubt that multiple units could meet in terms of passenger comfort. Hence why I believe Mk5s similar to TPE with a few changes, would be the best option for Scotrail both operational wise, comfort wise and maintenance wise.

Can someone give me a jargon buster on these acronyms?

LHCS - loco hauled coaching stock. Like the Mk5As.

Stadler units put the engines in a separate compartment rather than under the passenger cabin. It was explicitly stated that the 170s could be upgraded to meet the required quality level in the ScotRail tender documents. Abellio won the franchise because it had the highest quality score for the entire contract rather than the InterCity trains alone.

HSTs and multiple units are able to run faster than loco hauled sets because of their reduced track wear and superior braking systems. 185s are unique amongst multiple units in that they're so heavy that they don't qualify. A lot of the plans for the ScotRail InterCity services are built around the reduction in journey times that the HSTs will be able to achieve compared to the 170s and it would be unconscionable to allow journey times to be lengthened again in future. Any new trains would need to match or beat current timings, so there's really no option other than multiple units.

Only a comparatively small section of the ScotRail InterCity network is to be electrified before 2019. Since the trains are already non-stop between Glasgow and Stirling there wouldn't be much benefit to journey times from being able to use the wires, especially when they're already going to have good acceleration from being shortened HST sets.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Looking forward to working these personally....

Think the old school class 50 bashers are secretly getting excited too. Some of the 68s have 50 names and there are some cracking pubs on the TPE route too!

Indeed there are. However you don't necessarily need LCHS to visit those!

 

[Clansman]

HST stands for High Speed Train.

I'm long past beginner level

 

[RichmondCommu]

LHCS - loco hauled coaching stock. Like the Mk5As.

Stadler units put the engines in a separate compartment rather than under the passenger cabin. It was explicitly stated that the 170s could be upgraded to meet the required quality level in the ScotRail tender documents. Abellio won the franchise because it had the highest quality score for the entire contract rather than the InterCity trains alone.

I must admit that I wasn't aware of that. Just out of interest how many seats are lost by doing that?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm long past beginner level

Just answering your question I'd assumed that it was a case of Baxter Basics.

 

[Clansman]

LHCS - loco hauled coaching stock. Like the Mk5As.

Stadler units put the engines in a separate compartment rather than under the passenger cabin. It was explicitly stated that the 170s could be upgraded to meet the required quality level in the ScotRail tender documents. Abellio won the franchise because it had the highest quality score for the entire contract rather than the InterCity trains alone.

HSTs and multiple units are able to run faster than loco hauled sets because of their reduced track wear and superior braking systems. 185s are unique amongst multiple units in that they're so heavy that they don't qualify. A lot of the plans for the ScotRail InterCity services are built around the reduction in journey times that the HSTs will be able to achieve compared to the 170s and it would be unconscionable to allow journey times to be lengthened again in future. Any new trains would need to match or beat current timings, so there's really no option other than multiple units.

Only a comparatively small section of the ScotRail InterCity network is to be electrified before 2019. Since the trains are already non-stop between Glasgow and Stirling there wouldn't be much benefit to journey times from being able to use the wires, especially when they're already going to have good acceleration from being shortened HST sets.

Cheers for the jargon, much appreciated. Had an inkling that's what it meant but wasn't sure at first.

Fair enough, I was more thinking that a more efficient way of incorporating superior acceleration in both forms of electric and diesel power which could at least match the HST timings.
Although I reckon an Mk5 build is the way to go, I do agree with how Stadler set their trains up in terms of engine location etc, however I'm not a big fan of their train design - it's too European - high floors and dodgy interior layouts! Having said that, they do look smart externally.

A bi-mode MU with engines located elsewhere seems like the best options then when it comes to timings, though I think most of us would want LHCS for the utmost comfort. It's intriguing as to what'll become of Scotrail Intercity services once the HSTs are dead and buried, as I fear that MUs will be a major downgrade if they don't get it right - as been demonstrated elsewhere in the UK.

Hopefully there will be a public release on the Mk5 coaches soon when CAF finally take a step out their tight-lipped way of doing press releases.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Cheers for the jargon, much appreciated. Had an inkling that's what it meant but wasn't sure at first.

Fair enough, I was more thinking that a more efficient way of incorporating superior acceleration in both forms of electric and diesel power which could at least match the HST timings.
Although I reckon an Mk5 build is the way to go, I do agree with how Stadler set their trains up in terms of engine location etc, however I'm not a big fan of their train design - it's too European - high floors and dodgy interior layouts! Having said that, they do look smart externally.

A bi-mode MU with engines located elsewhere seems like the best options then when it comes to timings, though I think most of us would want LHCS for the utmost comfort. It's intriguing as to what'll become of Scotrail Intercity services once the HSTs are dead and buried, as I fear that MUs will be a major downgrade if they don't get it right - as been demonstrated elsewhere in the UK.

Hopefully there will be a public release on the Mk5 coaches soon when CAF finally take a step out their tight-lipped way of doing press releases.

If you really wanted to I'm sure that Stadler could put the engine compartments in the driving segments, thereby creating a sort of quasi-HST arrangement. However, it's really quite irrelevant where the engines are along the train so long as they're separated from the passenger environment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you really wanted to I'm sure that Stadler could put the engine compartments in the driving segments, thereby creating a sort of quasi-HST arrangement. However, it's really quite irrelevant where the engines are along the train so long as they're separated from the passenger environment.

If Merseyrail end up with bi-modes for the Skem extension as I understand from that thread is a possibility if additional third rail cannot be authorised, I would expect this to be the case, as the engine module would make the unit too long to double up.

The FLIRT platform is highly flexible for small production runs - that's the whole point - it grew up from the GTW (Gelenktriebwagen = articulated multiple unit), which itself came from supplying single-figure numbers of highly customised trains for Swiss narrow gauge lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit that I wasn't aware of that. Just out of interest how many seats are lost by doing that?

None, it's inserted between two of the articulated coaches. It's to all intents and purposes a short cabless locomotive on one bogie off which the adjacent two articulated coaches are hung.

The reason for it isn't noise abatement, though, it's so the units can, in their European guise, be low floor near enough throughout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As opposed to buying DMU's which would be cheaper to run?

The reason TPE ordered the Mk5s was not a strange retro leaning, but because as a follow on order to the Caledonian order (that's why they are 22m) they were available quicker than DMUs. This might be of benefit to other TOCs too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The reason TPE ordered the Mk5s was not a strange retro leaning, but because as a follow on order to the Caledonian order (that's why they are 22m) they were available quicker than DMUs. This might be of benefit to other TOCs too.

However would other TOC's face the same urgency? If they're ordering stock to directly replace something else it would surely make sense to go for something that was cheap to maintain and operate. In other words a DMU.

 

[edwin_m]

There is no current requirement for bi-mode on the ScotRail InterCity routes. When the HSTs come to the end of their life, Glasgow to Aberdeen will be either completely or partially electrified, so bi-mode will be necessary. LHCS would have a very hard time being as fast on the InterCity services as the HSTs are, so I think a bi-mode multiple unit of some description would be in order. Stadler would be able to produce such a unit today if required by mixing and matching the components it will use for the Anglia sets.

I think the Scots would like to hope that electrification has reached Aberdeen and Inverness (including the Fife routes) by the time the HSTs are finally retired (2030ish?). So an order of straight electrics plus DMUs for the Aberdeen-Inverness route (and perhaps also the West Highland and the further north?) might be a better choice.