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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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Nym

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Just see how much of the Class 800 is actually manufactured in the U.K. ....

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2015/12/08/8505fb80/IEPUKSupplyChain.JPG

Huber & Shuner are Swiss.
Harting are German
Lucchini are Italian
Knorr Bremse are German
Siemens are German


The only notable UK suppliers on there that are providing more than a UK distribution service would be the likes of...

BMAC, Petards (Joyce Lobel), Arrowvale, DCA, Treadmaster, ROMAG, LPA Excil and Brecknell Willis. At a push Thales for AWS/TPWS.

Hardly all major and integral systems...

It's hardly like the 'good ol days' where everything is made and assembled by Met Cam from base materials with sub assemblies coming from the likes of the above companies.

The UK, in the real world, now, makes high tech and specialised sub systems for rail, some of which are only used in the UK anyway. (AWS/TPWS, DRA etc.)
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Would the class 323s have been the last class of unit/loco to have had the majority of it made in the UK and not just final assembly?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Does Alstom make or design much at Preston these days?

They are still an engineering support centre for Alstom, but with a dwindling input to their new traction package designs (which are built in France).
Every time a new Pendolino order (eg the Alliance trains) is delayed it reduces the likelihood of work at Preston.
Whether that capability will migrate to the new site at Widnes I don't know.
 

D365

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Huber & Shuner are Swiss.
Harting are German
Lucchini are Italian
Knorr Bremse are German
Siemens are German


The only notable UK suppliers on there that are providing more than a UK distribution service would be the likes of...

BMAC, Petards (Joyce Lobel), Arrowvale, DCA, Treadmaster, ROMAG, LPA Excil and Brecknell Willis. At a push Thales for AWS/TPWS.

Hardly all major and integral systems...

It's hardly like the 'good ol days' where everything is made and assembled by Met Cam from base materials with sub assemblies coming from the likes of the above companies.

The UK, in the real world, now, makes high tech and specialised sub systems for rail, some of which are only used in the UK anyway. (AWS/TPWS, DRA etc.)

At the end of the day, in what is now a very globalised market, would you rather there be some jobs here, or none at all?
 

Ash Bridge

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Would the class 323s have been the last class of unit/loco to have had the majority of it made in the UK and not just final assembly?

I could be wrong here, but from memory weren't the body shells for these manufactured in Spain (CAF) and the traction motors from Holland (Holec)?
 

Nym

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At the end of the day, in what is now a very globalised market, would you rather there be some jobs here, or none at all?

Not the point I was trying to make.

I would rather the former, and if one glances back through my history, you'll find that I frequently point out how many more UK labour hours and how much more UK labour is employed by the likes of Siemens that assemble in Germany than Bombardier Derby that assemble over here.
 

Suraggu

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I have to laugh, various wibble stating that because First has ordered these sets for TPE a follow on order for the First/MTR joint bid is likely to happen.
It really does not work like that...
 

Ash Bridge

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British weather? As soon as people got the chance to go somewhere with significantly better weather for their holiday, they did.

Never had a serious cause for complaint about Cornish weather after having many holidays there over the years around late May/June, on the other hand I've also been to the Spanish Costa's a good few times since the mid seventies and at times endured some dire conditions.
 

Philip

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It seems TPE are thinking more about the long distance aspect with these new trains, rather than making travel across the core route as efficient as possible. Are we going to see a return to long dwell times at the big stations, like when the 158s worked the services?

I hope they don't dedicate a whole carriage to first class. Hopefully only a third or at the most half of a carriage will have first class seating. Peak time six-car 185 workings are already well filled and that's with an extra carriage compared to what the new trains will be.
 

507021

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It seems TPE are thinking more about the long distance aspect with these new trains, rather than making travel across the core route as efficient as possible. Are we going to see a return to long dwell times at the big stations, like when the 158s worked the services?

I hope they don't dedicate a whole carriage to first class. Hopefully only a third or at the most half of a carriage will have first class seating. Peak time six-car 185 workings are already well filled and that's with an extra carriage compared to what the new trains will be.

According to the CAF website, there will be a first class carriage, three standard class carriages (one with a guard's compartment) and a standard class driving trailer in each of the Mark 5A carriage rakes.
 

najaB

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I hope they don't dedicate a whole carriage to first class. Hopefully only a third or at the most half of a carriage will have first class seating. Peak time six-car 185 workings are already well filled and that's with an extra carriage compared to what the new trains will be.
It's not the number of carriages that matters, it's the number of seats. According to Wikipedia the 185s have 154 standard, 15 first (169 total) and according to Railway Gazette the Mk 5A sets will have 287 (not sure of the split).
 

sprinterguy

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It's not the number of carriages that matters, it's the number of seats. According to Wikipedia the 185s have 154 standard, 15 first (169 total) and according to Railway Gazette the Mk 5A sets will have 287 (not sure of the split).
257 standard and 29 first class (286 total) according to the TPE franchise agreement.
 

rebmcr

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It's not the number of carriages that matters, it's the number of seats. According to Wikipedia the 185s have 154 standard, 15 first (169 total) and according to Railway Gazette the Mk 5A sets will have 287 (not sure of the split).

That's the point, 5x Mk5 = 287; whereas 6x 185 = 338.
 

yorkie

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This is not the place for a discussion on aviation. Please stick to the topic.
Agreed. I have split the off-topic discussion here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143682

This is a time-consuming process. So, can I please ask that if anyone seems a post going off-topic and you wish to add to it, that you consider if there is a more appropriate thread, and if there isn't one already, create a new one using the 'New thread' button in the appropriate forum, and continue the discussion there. This would be a great help, thanks!
 

Philip

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257 standard and 29 first class (286 total) according to the TPE franchise agreement.

Assuming around about 57 seats per carriage then that should mean only half of the carriage will have first class seating. That's something although I still think space will be a little tight on some of the peak time trains.
 

Mikey C

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Huber & Shuner are Swiss.
Harting are German
Lucchini are Italian
Knorr Bremse are German
Siemens are German

But all these suppliers are manufacturing in the UK. Knorr Bremse for example are the former Westinghouse braking
 

BMIFlyer

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According to the CAF website, there will be a first class carriage, three standard class carriages (one with a guard's compartment) and a standard class driving trailer in each of the Mark 5A carriage rakes.

One carriage (the one next to the loco) will be crew compartment and 1st class only.

Regarding these trains, remember that they are running in routes that normally (except rush hour) use a single 185 (Man Air to Middlesbrough and Liverpool to Scarborough).

Therefore it will be a giant increase in seats. Having a whole carriage of 1st class will also make life easier for the crew and more pleasant for the passengers who pay to sit in 1st.
 

BMIFlyer

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Assuming around about 57 seats per carriage then that should mean only half of the carriage will have first class seating. That's something although I still think space will be a little tight on some of the peak time trains.

257 standard and 30 first, which is 106 more total seats than a class 185.
 

Philip

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257 standard and 30 first, which is 106 more total seats than a class 185.

But even 10 years ago it was obvious that the 185s were too short and that 4-5 coach units were needed. Since then growth has soared and it will only continue to expand. With this in mind (and considering how badly 4-5 coach Voyagers fare on CC services), would 6-7 coach units not have been more sensible?

Also I would think the extra number of seats per carriage will mean standing room is reduced. This is an area where the 185s fare strongly.
 

BMIFlyer

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But even 10 years ago it was obvious that the 185s were too short and that 4-5 coach units were needed. Since then growth has soared and it will only continue to expand. With this in mind (and considering how badly 4-5 coach Voyagers fare on CC services), would 6-7 coach units not have been more sensible?

Also I would think the extra number of seats per carriage will mean standing room is reduced. This is an area where the 185s fare strongly.

Having 6-7 coach trains presents other issues such as platform length at stations - Huddersfield being a good example.

I've never seen any more than say 100 people standing on a train operated by a single 185, and that's in extreme circumstances when the train before it has been cancelled. When people get used to the trains having x amount of seats, travel patterns will change I'm sure.

Yes growth will continue but remember that from 2019 there will be 6 trains per hour run by TPE from Leeds to Manchester. A huge increase in seat availability.
 

notlob.divad

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But even 10 years ago it was obvious that the 185s were too short and that 4-5 coach units were needed. Since then growth has soared and it will only continue to expand. With this in mind (and considering how badly 4-5 coach Voyagers fare on CC services), would 6-7 coach units not have been more sensible?

As I have pointed out before. The signalling around the new Ordsal Chord has been designed around a maximum length of 6 cars / coaches /carriages without fouling the junctions at either end. As the loco will take up one of the 6, 5 coaches or a 6 car DMU was the maximum that was ever likely to be used irrespective of what the need may be.
 

BMIFlyer

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From 2019 every TPE service will be 5 or 6 cars in length. You could in an ideal world extend the loco hauled trains to 6 coaches plus loco, but alterations would be required to platform 8 at Huddersfield unless selective door operation is used to prevent the doors opening in one of the coaches.

I'm sure time will tell once the trains enter service and a fairly accurate number regarding passenger flows is recorded by the on board counting software.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Pretry certain you can get 6+1 on P8 but it will be a squeeze. Not an issue if loco is at liverpool end...

There is of course P4 which will accomodate 8-9 but that will mean moving local stoppers to 8 or the bays which could reduce capacity. One other possibility is extend P8 onto P7s formation or reinstate P7 as a bay - signalbox is in the way tho
 

YorkshireBear

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Be interesting to see if anything comes about from platform lengths. I think the working assumption before was 8*20m for TPE was it not? Or was that just for the the Manchester-Scotland services.

The current schemes would prohibit a lot of lengthening of services especially using 5 car units. I assume in theory there is nothing to stop the units being extended beyond 5 car?
 

edwin_m

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I assume in theory there is nothing to stop the units being extended beyond 5 car?

The Hitachi units are the same design as class 800/801 which I believe was specified to be configurable in lengths up to 12 car. Not sure what the issues would be in lengthening the CAF units on the WCML services.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Pretry certain you can get 6+1 on P8 but it will be a squeeze. Not an issue if loco is at liverpool end...

There is of course P4 which will accomodate 8-9 but that will mean moving local stoppers to 8 or the bays which could reduce capacity. One other possibility is extend P8 onto P7s formation or reinstate P7 as a bay - signalbox is in the way tho

The stoppers which currently use P4 are being withdrawn (perhaps not in the peaks) so in theory that platform could be available I'd have thought. The stoppers using the P4-8 island will just be the Leeds via Bradford and the Castleford via Wakefield Kirkgate. Currently both use P6 most of the day. P5 is also available but can't hold more than a 2-car 150.
 
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