TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[CW2]

As reported in this thread: Class 68 + Mk 5 diagrams the December 2020 timetable change will see the number of class 68 diagrams step up from a pitiful 3 to a slightly less pitiful 4.
The timetable itself has now been mostly uploaded, and confirms that the York - Scarborough short workings are abandoned - apart from one each way in the evening - with hourly Scarborough - Liverpool throughout the day.
It's a 7-hour cycle, so apparently it will be 4 x 68 + Mk 5 per day and 3 pairs of 185s. Any info on which ones will be hauled and which will be 185s would be much appreciated.
That's the theory anyway. A lot could happen between now and then ...

 

[37424]

yes, and additional depots are now required to sign the Liverpool CLC diversion.

The north timetable is changing dramatically with increased service provision on top of the Tfn meeting.

The Liverpool to Edinburgh will operate to York only with extensions every three hours to Edinburgh. York to Newcastle served by Victoria to Newcastle shorts operating hourly.

Scarborough shuttles replaced by full Liverpool to Scarborough service pre-covid timetable. (Nova 3/185)

Stopper services will revert to 3 car with some services replaced by additional calls on the express routes on Sundays and evenings

Most (but not all) Redcar and Cleethorpes services will operate as 6 car units as per pre-covid timetable, Cleethorpes services will not operate further than Piccadilly bar 1RJ for route retention purposes

Hull service will start an hour later and finish an hour earlier. Sunday journeys replace Manchester stopping service.

Airport to Edinburgh - no change to timetable, calling pattern changes
Liverpool to Glasgow - 50% timetable
Airport to Glasgow - 50% timetable

The service that the Mk5s and 68s work is SEVERELY cut back, just look at the timetable! It is supposed to hourly Scarborough to Liverpool and return, but there are only 5 a day. Therer are some services that terminate at York, yes half of which are 185s (probably as they are based at York) but only 5 through services is definitely a dramatic cut back from the 15 there should be. Note that even with some services truncated at York there are 4 services completely out of the timetable

See "Rholmes" post indicating a more or less full timetable in December for the Scarborough Service

 

[8J]

Below is a list of what to expect in Dec 2020 in terms of departures from Liverpool. It is of course subject to change and final confirmation closer to the time.

Liverpool Lime St TPE Dec 2020 timetable departures with proposed traction:

05:20 York - 802
05:52 Hull Paragon 185 x2
06:24 Edinburgh Waverly - 802
06:54 Scarborough 185 x2
07:24 York - 802
07:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
08:12 Glasgow Central - 397
08:24 York - 802
08:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
09:24 Edinburgh Waverly - 802
09:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
10:24 York - 802
10:54 Scarborough - 185 x2
11:24 York - 802
11:54 Scarborough - 185 x2
12:24 Edinburgh Waverly - 802
12:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
13:24 York - 802
13:54 Scarborough - 185 x2
14:24 York - 802
14:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
15:24 Edinburgh Waverly - 802
15:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
16:12 Glasgow Central - 397
16:24 York - 802
16:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
17:24 Edinburgh Waverly - 802
17:54 Scarborough - 185 x2
18:24 Newcastle Central - 802
18:54 Scarborough - 185 x2
19:25 Newcastle Central - 802
19:54 Scarborough - 68/Mk5
20:24 Newcastle Central - 802
21:08 Newcastle Central - 802
22:06 York - 185 x2

This indicates the uplift in 68/Mk5 work and may be of use to forum users and applies from the next timetable change in December 2020.

York traincrew don’t sign CLC but Liverpool crew don’t sign Nova 3.

It allows 185 trains to be used in times of disruptions by Liverpool, Manchester Pic, Airport and York as apposed to just Liverpool should their be problems on the Chat Moss

I'm not sure about conductors, but there are a number of Manchester Piccadilly drivers who sign both 68/Mk5 and The Cheshire Lines route to Liverpool.

The largest headache now for TPE will be the training regimes being significantly reduced due to COVID-19.

For York/Manchester crews to re-sign the Cheshire Lines is not as simple as handing out a cab pass and being sent on their way. Due to COVID-19, training is only sanctioned when taking place in a "training bubble so you'd need to release an instructor and a unit/set to operate specifically over that route to conduct the route learning.

TPE should in my opinion be looking into training Liverpool crews up on 68/Mk5 before training York crews on the Cheshire lines in my opinion. Liverpool is only a small.depot and it wouldn't take too long.

You currently have the situation where a Liverpool driver/conductor could be sat spare at the depot and a service needs covering at short notice due one of many reasons.

They sign the route so go down to discover the service is operated by a 68/Mk5 set, so can't take the train resulting in a cancellation!

 

[sjpowermac]

TP01 has made its passenger debut today 02.11.2020 working 1E43 16:30 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough with 68028.

Sets yet to work in passenger service down to just TP02/03/05 and spare DT 12814.

Full list of first workings updated below.

TP09 68027 24.08.2019
1F48 05:55 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool

TP11 68026 28.08.2019
1F62 12:56 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool

TP04 68025 19.09.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP12 68030 05.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP06 68028 12.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP08 68019 01.12.2019
1E29 08:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP13 68022 11.12.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP07 68023 24.12.2019
1E23 06:27 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough

TP10 68021 13.10.2020
1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street

TP01 68028 02.11.2020
1E43 16:30 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

 

[RHolmes]

The December timetable has now changed and the plan for a full Liverpool to Scarborough service will now end. All trains will shuttle between York and Scarborough only (hourly) and as such the diagrams posted above will no longer be correct.

Presumably these will be operated by the 2x Nova 3 fleet subject to crew competency

 

[Elecman]

Plenty of Nova 3 sets in Basford Hall Yard sans locos today

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty of Nova 3 sets in Basford Hall Yard sans locos today

Are the rest going into storage, then?

 

[Tynwald]

4 sets in store at Basford Hall

 

[sbrignall72]

4 sets in store at Basford Hall

What a waste of money. Brand new traction stored. I know we are in a pandemic but it doesn't sound right.

 

[43 302]

What a waste of money. Brand new traction stored. I know we are in a pandemic but it doesn't sound right.

Technically not traction

 

[CW2]

Inevitable I suppose, once a second lockdown was announced. Presumably there must be some cost saving by running 6-car 185s as compared with class 68 + 5-car Nova 3? Otherwise why would TPE be giving priority to 185s? The prospect of a full TPE timetable seems very distant at the moment.

 

[Roast Veg]

Are the exams required for bringing a stored coaching set back into service simpler?

 

[RHolmes]

Inevitable I suppose, once a second lockdown was announced. Presumably there must be some cost saving by running 6-car 185s as compared with class 68 + 5-car Nova 3? Otherwise why would TPE be giving priority to 185s? The prospect of a full TPE timetable seems very distant at the moment.

Every single member of traincrew (past, present and future) is trained on a 185 including depots who don’t sign the traction.

Very few are trained on the 68/Mk5a

 

[CW2]

Every single member of traincrew (past, present and future) is trained on a 185 including depots who don’t sign the traction.

Very few are trained on the 68/Mk5a

Presumably there are (or would have been) enough crews to work the 4 diagrams planned from December, so that can only be part of the answer.

 

[RHolmes]

Presumably there are (or would have been) enough crews to work the 4 diagrams planned from December, so that can only be part of the answer.

Passenger numbers are nowhere near the expected levels which is the reason for the shuttle, unfortunately it’s as simple as that. The Scarborough route was one of the busiest during the original lockdown but we won’t see the same numbers of passengers flocking to the seaside mid-January

The current train service between Liverpool/Manchester and Leeds/York is sufficient for the time being

 

[8J]

It does seem very short sighted of TPE to only run one diagram each way across the Pennines. Traincrew traction knowledge may well lapse. The status quo will have probably been more suitable.

 

[sjpowermac]

It does seem very short sighted of TPE to only run one diagram each way across the Pennines. Traincrew traction knowledge may well lapse. The status quo will have probably been more suitable.

You make a very good point about traction and route knowledge. I suspect that ‘temporary’ timetables might last for a bit longer than we would hope...

 

[_toommm_]

Looks like a bit of a failed test run today on the WCML potentially?

Realtime Trains - 333K 0516 Manchester Int Dpt (Fl) to Carnforth D&U.G.L.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Looks like a bit of a failed test run today on the WCML potentially?

Realtime Trains - 333K 0516 Manchester Int Dpt (Fl) to Carnforth D&U.G.L.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Hmm yes looks like it. 68022. Cancelled as of 0754.

 

[_toommm_]

Hmm yes looks like it. 68022. Cancelled as of 0754.

Do you know if it was just 68022 or was it mileage accumulation with a MK5a set too?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Do you know if it was just 68022 or was it mileage accumulation with a MK5a set too?

Cancelled at Carnforth after a reported problem with the loco. The train was formed of 68022 and set 5. 68022 being swapped out (with 68025) as a precaution.

 

[Mikey C]

Is it the presence of the drivers cab at one end which is complicating things?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that we do welcome suggestions/ideas being posted, but we do ask that these are posted in the Speculative Ideas section please.


I have moved the proposal for TPE to get rid of Mk5s into the appropriate forum section.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just a gentle reminder that we do welcome suggestions/ideas being posted, but we do ask that these are posted in the Speculative Ideas section please.


I have moved the proposal for TPE to get rid of Mk5s into the appropriate forum section.

Thanks mate - won't be long until that forum is 206 pages* long in itself. Everybody I've spoken to or known in the railways has something to say about these like no other new train.

*this forum might be a few more or a few fewer pages depending on your software

 

[sjpowermac]

On 24.12.2020 set TP05 made its debut on TPE passenger workings, with its first train being 1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street with 68030 ‘Black Douglas’ in charge.

That now leaves just TP02 and TP03 to be accepted, along with the spare Driving Trailer.

Updated list of introductions into passenger service given below:

TP09 68027 24.08.2019
1F48 05:55 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool

TP11 68026 28.08.2019
1F62 12:56 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool


TP04 68025 19.09.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP12 68030 05.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP06 68028 12.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP08 68019 01.12.2019
1E29 08:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP13 68022 11.12.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP07 68023 24.12.2019
1E23 06:27 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough

TP10 68021 13.10.2020
1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street

TP01 68028 02.11.2020
1E43 16:30 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

TP05 68030 24.12.2020
1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street

 

[43 302]

On 24.12.2020 set TP05 made its debut on TPE passenger workings, with its first train being 1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street with 68030 ‘Black Douglas’ in charge.

That now leaves just TP02 and TP03 to be accepted, along with the spare Driving Trailer.

Updated list of introductions into passenger service given below:

TP09 68027 24.08.2019
1F48 05:55 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool

TP11 68026 28.08.2019
1F62 12:56 Manchester Victoria-Liverpool


TP04 68025 19.09.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP12 68030 05.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP06 68028 12.10.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP08 68019 01.12.2019
1E29 08:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP13 68022 11.12.2019
1E23 05:56 Liverpool-Scarborough

TP07 68023 24.12.2019
1E23 06:27 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough

TP10 68021 13.10.2020
1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street

TP01 68028 02.11.2020
1E43 16:30 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough

TP05 68030 24.12.2020
1F48 05:54 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street

Many thanks for this, much appreciated! I don't suppose that you have the first workings for each class 68 do you?

 

[sjpowermac]

Many thanks for this, much appreciated! I don't suppose that you have the first workings for each class 68 do you?

First TPE passenger runs for Class 68s

68019 01.12.2019 1E29 08:56 LIV-SCA

68020 25.02.2020 1P05 02:42 MAN-YRK

68021 08.01.2020 1P05 02:42 MAN-YRK

68022 11.12.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68023 24.12.2019 1E23 06:27 MAN-SCA

68024 27.08.2020 1E43 16:30 MAN-SCA

68025 19.09.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68026 28.08.2019 1F62 12:56 MCV-LIV

68027 24.08.2019 1F48 05:55 MCV-LIV

68028 12.10.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68029 01.10.2020 1E43 16:30 MAN-SCA

68030 05.10.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68031 29.01.2020 1E23 06:27 MAN-SCA

68032 26.05.2020 1F48 05:54 MCV-LIV

68033 14.05.2020 1E23 06:30 MCV-SCA

68034 01.06.2020 1F48 05:54 MAN-LIV

LIV Liverpool Lime Street
MCV Manchester Victoria
MAN Manchester Piccadilly
SCA Scarborough

 

[43 302]

First TPE passenger runs for Class 68s:

68019 01.12.2019 1E29 08:56 LIV-SCA

68020 25.02.2020 1P05 02:42 MAN-YRK

68021 08.01.2020 1P05 02:42 MAN-YRK

68022 11.12.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68023 24.12.2019 1E23 06:27 MAN-SCA

68024 27.08.2020 1E43 16:30 MAN-SCA

68025 19.09.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68026 28.08.2019 1F62 12:56 MCV-LIV

68027 24.08.2019 1F48 05:55 MCV-LIV

68028 12.10.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68029 01.10.2020 1E43 16:30 MAN-SCA

68030 05.10.2019 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA

68031 29.01.2020 1E23 06:27 MAN-SCA

68032 26.05.2020 1F48 05:54 MCV-LIV

68033 14.05.2020 1E23 06:30 MCV-SCA

68034 01.06.2020 1F48 05:54 MAN-LIV

LIV Liverpool Lime Street
MCV Manchester Victoria
MAN Manchester Piccadilly
SCA Scarborough

Keep it quiet though, there are some on the thread who object to locos being mentioned

Thank you kindly. I wasn't aware of 1P05 pre-covid, that is an early start!

 

[sjpowermac]

Thank you kindly. I wasn't aware of 1P05 pre-covid, that is an early start!

You are most welcome. 1P05 ran over a wide variety of diversionary routes, I understand partly to keep up route knowledge.

 

[_toommm_]

You are most welcome. 1P05 ran over a wide variety of diversionary routes, I understand partly to keep up route knowledge.

Didn’t it do pretty much every reversal possible? i.e. reverse at Salford, travel via Rochdale, reverse at Huddersfield, reverse at Leeds then travel via Casvegas?