TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[najaB]

I think the Scots would like to hope that electrification has reached Aberdeen and Inverness (including the Fife routes) by the time the HSTs are finally retired (2030ish?).

That's incredibly opitmistic. Aberdeen I could see but Inverness is probably a bridge (and viaduct and tunnel) too far.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not entirely sure these look the most comfortable seats ever...

They're the same as the ones being used in the Class 80x. Not tried them personally, but they don't look too bad. Preferable to a cramped Voyager seat at least! They seem to be an evolution of the Class 395 seat, which I found to be quite comfortable when I last travelled on one.

Not sure we are talking about the same trains here.
Are those seats in TPE's CAF units (Mk5 or 397) or their Hitachi 802s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure we are talking about the same trains here.
Are those seats in TPE's CAF units (Mk5 or 397) or their Hitachi 802s?

The CAF artist's impressions I have seen so far show the rather thickly-padded seats used in Northern Ireland CAF DMUs. So I expect those are the Hitachi seats which are, er, the same as all the other Hitachi seats (and notably the same as the ones in 1st in the ScotRail EMUs).

 

[Bletchleyite]

However would other TOC's face the same urgency? If they're ordering stock to directly replace something else it would surely make sense to go for something that was cheap to maintain and operate. In other words a DMU.

True. And I would think ATW will more likely involve cascades anyway, such as 159s from SWT.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

For clarification.

Cant copy and paste....

 

[Nym]

Don't even know what that stands for lol, my jargon comes and goes sometimes.

By bi-mode Mk5s, I mean a similar instance to the TPE order, but with a panto on the Mk5 driving trailer (well, electric loco?) to support bi-mode operation, with the right traction equipment under each Mk5 coach to draw power from overhead wires and into the diesel loco for more efficient use on non-electrified lines.

In terms of 195s and 331s, to that I say; ... there goes the purpose of a proper Intercity service in Scotland in that case.

So you want an EMU to which a locomotive can be attached?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you want an EMU to which a locomotive can be attached?

There are certainly many routes for which such a thing would work.

 

[Clip]

There are certainly many routes for which such a thing would work.

The poster he quoted stated an electric loco which just makes a mockery or having an EMU in the first place

 

[D365]

There are certainly many routes for which such a thing would work.

Such as the soon to be AT300-operated routes.

 

[Clansman]

So you want an EMU to which a locomotive can be attached?

If that's what you call it then pretty much, although not exactly.
Basically (well, not really); I think a 6 car set of Mk5 coaches, with 1 electric passenger driving trailer at one end, electric equipment throughout the Mk5s with compatibility for diesel, and a walkthrough diesel locomotive at the front. Or integrated bi-mode locomotives at each end.

Let's just call it a LHCS consisting of Mk5s with Bi-Mode Locomotives at each end for now until I've worked it out

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stadler will build you a bi-mode that is basically that.

 

[Clansman]

Stadler will build you a bi-mode that is basically that.

Stadler would need to change their usual tune design wise in that instance. I don't think Transport Scotland would want single door half length carriages with seats at different levels etc. They would want something similar to what we have now in the UK, with 23m (at least) carriages with long windows, single leaf doors at each end and sufficient room for an onboard buffet car and space for proper first class.

I have no idea why the majority of DMU/EMUs don't have the sufficient space for seat and what not akin to that of LHCS - it's something I would fear if there were more DMU/EMUs built for Intercity services, instead of Mk5s.

No idea if Stadler have any past experience with the specifications we've seen here in the UK apart as I can't really see a model of train on their website which looks like what we have in the UK. I guess they would need to open up a new platform/series of rolling stock if they were to bring that technology for Scottish Intercity services.

 

[urpert]

They're the same as the ones being used in the Class 80x. Not tried them personally, but they don't look too bad. Preferable to a cramped Voyager seat at least! They seem to be an evolution of the Class 395 seat, which I found to be quite comfortable when I last travelled on one.

Also the same as the first class seats on the 700s. They're fine but far from luxurious.

 

[CosherB]

If that's what you call it then pretty much, although not exactly.
Basically (well, not really); I think a 6 car set of Mk5 coaches, with 1 electric passenger driving trailer at one end, electric equipment throughout the Mk5s with compatibility for diesel, and a walkthrough diesel locomotive at the front. Or integrated bi-mode locomotives at each end.

Let's just call it a LHCS consisting of Mk5s with Bi-Mode Locomotives at each end for now until I've worked it out

What utter clap-trap. Wake up. :roll:

 

[Clansman]

What utter clap-trap. Wake up. :roll:

Hate to say it but I agree with you

 

[rebmcr]

What utter clap-trap. Wake up. :roll:

Hate to say it but I agree with you

There are friendlier ways of disagreeing, though.

 

[GrimShady]

For clarification.

Cant copy and paste....

Those awful seats again!

 

[edwin_m]

Stadler would need to change their usual tune design wise in that instance. I don't think Transport Scotland would want single door half length carriages with seats at different levels etc. They would want something similar to what we have now in the UK, with 23m (at least) carriages with long windows, single leaf doors at each end and sufficient room for an onboard buffet car and space for proper first class.

...

No idea if Stadler have any past experience with the specifications we've seen here in the UK apart as I can't really see a model of train on their website which looks like what we have in the UK. I guess they would need to open up a new platform/series of rolling stock if they were to bring that technology for Scottish Intercity services.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a train design with shorter sections articulated together. Although there may be only one door per section the door spacing is probably similar on average to a conventional train and more even than one with doors near each end of each coach. The Stadler sets ordered for Anglia and Merseyrail will have the major benefit of level boarding from a UK standard platform. I'm not sure if the floor is level or whether it ramps up between doorways - but the Hitachi bi-modes will certainly do that. If the Stadler units are successful in the UK then they will be a strong competitor for future orders in Scotland and elsewhere.

 

[Clansman]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a train design with shorter sections articulated together. Although there may be only one door per section the door spacing is probably similar on average to a conventional train and more even than one with doors near each end of each coach. The Stadler sets ordered for Anglia and Merseyrail will have the major benefit of level boarding from a UK standard platform. I'm not sure if the floor is level or whether it ramps up between doorways - but the Hitachi bi-modes will certainly do that. If the Stadler units are successful in the UK then they will be a strong competitor for future orders in Scotland and elsewhere.

The difference with AGA, MR and Scotrail is that the latter has strict specifications for an Intercity style service, whereas the former 2 don't have such thing or to the same extent. So the trains will have a layout designed primarily for capacity before anything else, so it's hard to envisage how such stock can make it into Scotrail's Intercity programme. True, there's nothing wrong with middle doors, but in terms of how Transport Scotland are looking at Intercity options for Scotrail, it's hard to see how they would go for middle doored carriages of smaller length when they could order off a production line which already meets their Intercity demands - in the instance of Mark 5s for both TPE and CS. The only instance where Transport Scotland would seek to accept a rolling stock bid from Stadler for Intercity trains would be if 1) They utilise their Bi-Mode technology 2) If they open up a new production line of rolling stock which meets the demands set out by the Scotrail - which means rolling stock which gives the Mk3s a run for their money in all aspects of operation and passenger comfort etc - something which the Mk5s will more than likely be able enhance.

Guess it's just a case of wait and see what the Mk5s, Flirts and IEPs bring. Exciting times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No idea if Stadler have any past experience with the specifications we've seen here in the UK apart as I can't really see a model of train on their website which looks like what we have in the UK. I guess they would need to open up a new platform/series of rolling stock if they were to bring that technology for Scottish Intercity services.

Such as the platform/series of rolling stock (FLIRT UK) that will be used for InterCity services in East Anglia, perchance?

Yes, they're short vehicles with a single central door - but who cares?

By the way, these:
https://www.intercity.pl/pl/site/o-nas/dzial-prasowy/aktualnosci/flirt-z-pkp-intercity!.html

...are very nice inside and are certainly of InterCity standard, excellent view out, too, and high floor so no steps in the seating.

 

[jayiscupid]

Cheers for the jargon, much appreciated. Had an inkling that's what it meant but wasn't sure at first.

Fair enough, I was more thinking that a more efficient way of incorporating superior acceleration in both forms of electric and diesel power which could at least match the HST timings.
Although I reckon an Mk5 build is the way to go, I do agree with how Stadler set their trains up in terms of engine location etc, however I'm not a big fan of their train design - it's too European - high floors and dodgy interior layouts! Having said that, they do look smart externally.

A bi-mode MU with engines located elsewhere seems like the best options then when it comes to timings, though I think most of us would want LHCS for the utmost comfort. It's intriguing as to what'll become of Scotrail Intercity services once the HSTs are dead and buried, as I fear that MUs will be a major downgrade if they don't get it right - as been demonstrated elsewhere in the UK.

Hopefully there will be a public release on the Mk5 coaches soon when CAF finally take a step out their tight-lipped way of doing press releases.

What do you mean by Stadler's train being "too European"?

You complain about high floors yet the majority of Stadler's trains have been of a low floor design.

It is perfectly possible to design an articulated, low floor multiple unit an give it an "Intercity feel". You only have to look the the Stadler Flirts for PKP / Leo Express / MTR Express to see this and the new SBB EC250 is designed for 250km/h and offer an up-market feel for Swiss Intercity and Eurocity services.

The train having an "Intercity feel" is down to the franchise operator specifying the interior, Stadler just build what they have been asked for.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

As opposed to buying DMU's which would be cheaper to run?

Over 5 vehicles and a loco+coach consist becomes economically better. You get a reduced Track Access Charge for the DMU, but increase in maintenance and fuel costs more than compensate

 

[Clansman]

What do you mean by Stadler's train being "too European"?

You complain about high floors yet the majority of Stadler's trains have been of a low floor design.

It is perfectly possible to design an articulated, low floor multiple unit an give it an "Intercity feel". You only have to look the the Stadler Flirts for PKP / Leo Express / MTR Express to see this and the new SBB EC250 is designed for 250km/h and offer an up-market feel for Swiss Intercity and Eurocity services.

The train having an "Intercity feel" is down to the franchise operator specifying the interior, Stadler just build what they have been asked for.

I was reffering to them as "too European" because there's no such design here in the UK - yet. I was more highlighting the fluctuating heights of which the seats sit, as you highlighted this is probably due to the low flooring design to make use of the EU loading guage.

I've nothing against the Flirts, I think they are smart commuter trains, however, I'm not too sure how they fair when it comes to Intercity services.

As said, just a case of waiting to see what the AGA Flirts bring, along with the Mk5s.

Such as the platform/series of rolling stock (FLIRT UK) that will be used for InterCity services in East Anglia, perchance?

Yes, they're short vehicles with a single central door - but who cares?

By the way, these:
https://www.intercity.pl/pl/site/o-nas/dzial-prasowy/aktualnosci/flirt-z-pkp-intercity!.html

...are very nice inside and are certainly of InterCity standard, excellent view out, too, and high floor so no steps in the seating.

Not fussed about single doors, I've just never been on an Intercity service using single doors - so looking at photos and when I've been abroad I maybe get false impressions.

The interior looks very nice indeed. Although if they were British they'd of been aligned with the walls, have hardly any tables and leather seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The train having an "Intercity feel" is down to the franchise operator specifying the interior, Stadler just build what they have been asked for.

Talking of ScotRail, I don't know why it is (possibly the large number of tables?) but I think the Class 380 has a very InterCity feel despite being a suburban EMU. It can be done.

 

[sprinterguy]

If that's what you call it then pretty much, although not exactly.
Basically (well, not really); I think a 6 car set of Mk5 coaches, with 1 electric passenger driving trailer at one end, electric equipment throughout the Mk5s with compatibility for diesel, and a walkthrough diesel locomotive at the front. Or integrated bi-mode locomotives at each end.

Let's just call it a LHCS consisting of Mk5s with Bi-Mode Locomotives at each end for now until I've worked it out

Other than the walkthrough element, that sounds pretty much like Hitachi's original proposal for the Intercity Express programme, which envisaged a pantograph fitted seated driving trailer at one end of the train and a diesel power car at the other, or CRSE's proposed Polaris trains, which would have had a bi-mode power car at one or each end of the train. A few images shown below:

Intercity Express proposal:

CRSE Polaris:
https://manchestertransport.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/gnwr-polaris-train.jpg

The dedicated diesel power car element of the Intercity Express proposal was dropped when it was recognised that the power cars could be rendered obsolete by further electrification within the planned lifespan of the train, and removable underfloor engine rafts beneath a standard design of passenger vehicle offered more flexibility along with the benefits of distributed traction and built-in redundancy in the case of an engine failure.

(Apologies for the off topic IEP discussion , but it seemed relevant to the point being made)

 

[sprinterguy]

Also I would think the extra number of seats per carriage will mean standing room is reduced. This is an area where the 185s fare strongly.

According to the TPE franchise agreement, a class 185 officially has capacity for 106 standing passengers, while the mark 5 formations will have capacity for 143: Fewer standing passengers per carriage, but more across the length of a five carriage train compared to a three carriage one, and an increase in combined seated and standing capacity from 278 to 429.

 

[Clansman]

Other than the walkthrough element, that sounds pretty much like Hitachi's original proposal for the Intercity Express programme, which envisaged a pantograph fitted seated driving trailer at one end of the train and a diesel power car at the other, or CRSE's proposed Polaris trains, which would have had a bi-mode power car at one or each end of the train. A few images shown below:

The dedicated diesel power car element of the Intercity Express proposal was dropped when it was recognised that the power cars could be rendered obsolete by further electrification within the planned lifespan of the train, and removable underfloor engine rafts beneath a standard design of passenger vehicle offered more flexibility along with the benefits of distributed traction and built-in redundancy in the case of an engine failure.

(Apologies for the off topic IEP discussion , but it seemed relevant to the point being made)

Aha, that's where I got my idea from. The Polaris concept was one which I admired, and the original IEP concept.

The Polaris design is what I was originally referring to, but with a few tweaks of course. The concept suits Scotland well as the Northern half (let's say, Perth/Dundee northwards) won't even be electrified come 2030ish, so the concept suits it well in that respect, as well as timing wise with the dedicated power car.

Back to topic wise, I can't wait for the Mk5s to arrive.
I've seen a couple of photos on the Mk5s, they are looking great. Will be great to see them fully assembled and in full CS livery when CAF/CS finally issue a press release.

Apologies for deviating away from the main point initially.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Notice how the BR blue grey livery refuses to die....

XD

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notice how the BR blue grey livery refuses to die....

It spent some time on the WCML in the mid 2000s...

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind members that this thread is for discussion of the construction and delivery of Mark 5A stock to Transpennine Express. Further discussions relating to Stadler units, speculation on future orders by other TOCs and the multitude of other things which have come up recently, are off topic. Any further such off-topic discussion will be deleted. Thanks