TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[Mathew S]

I'm not aware of coupler issues on the Mk5s? It's door related was the impression I was under. You may be thinking of the units that CAF are producing?

Yes. Door (specifically, I believe, the automatic selective door opening) issues on the Mk5s, and coupler issues on the CAF units.

 

[Skie]

397 and Mk5a are fitted with the Complete ASDO system supplied by EKE and explained in this video

Jesus tapdancing Christopher that looks like an overly complicated system that will be a nightmare to maintain. Whats wrong with just installing a strip along the platform edge and each door has a sensor. No strip = no open for that door. Only the PIS then needs all of the pre-canned knowledge about which door should work at each station, but if the train ends up out of position the doors will still be safe to operate. The system in the video seems like it would fail fairly easily in a number of common scenarios, requiring manual intervention which can easily lead to mistakes in out of course running.

 

[sjpowermac]

Jesus tapdancing Christopher that looks like an overly complicated system that will be a nightmare to maintain. Whats wrong with just installing a strip along the platform edge and each door has a sensor. No strip = no open for that door. Only the PIS then needs all of the pre-canned knowledge about which door should work at each station, but if the train ends up out of position the doors will still be safe to operate. The system in the video seems like it would fail fairly easily in a number of common scenarios, requiring manual intervention which can easily lead to mistakes in out of course running.

The technology has been around on the U.K. network for some time. The earliest reference I can find to trials is 2012. SWT introduced it in fleet service in 2015. I found a thread on its introduction here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/444-450-asdo-introduction-into-passenger-service.121525/

(I hope I’ve linked that correctly, I’m still new here!).

One thing that does seem a little surprising is that it took so long for the Nova 3 sets to make their way over the core route. Whilst most of the train’s systems could be tested on any route, it would seem it is only possible to test ASDO on the intended route. I wonder when the beacons were installed?

Video below is less technical than the one posted earlier but it’s interesting from the point of view of daily operation from a guards perspective.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Regarding ASDO, it is currently TPE's plan just to use the GPS and Odometory set up with the EKE system. This set up does not rely on beacons.
This is different to the system currently being installed on a 185.
When the train reaches a 'Station Geofence' (roughly 500m from a station) it will give the Driver the option to give door release for the minimum platform length at that station.
(It would still give the driver the option to give door release for example if the stopped at a signal outside the station, but within the Station Geofence.)
For example, if Station 1 has 2 operational platforms for trains in that direction, it will give the shortest platform door release available.
This system is entirely reliant upon the Driver stopping the train +/- 1m from the Stop Board. If the train is stopped outside these parameters there is a chance that the rear Passenger door could not be accommodated on the platform and the Driver would have to get out and check that the train is physically on the platform. (Yes, exactly what a Guard does.)
There is also a 'ASDO Minimum' switch within the Driving cabs, which is used for permissive working where the system has picked up the station but the train has come on top of another and is a long way from the Stop Board. This will give door release to the front 2 coaches only, and then door control can be given to the Guard to open more doors if required. (Again, the Driver must get out and physically check the 2 coaches are on the platform.)
There is also a set up that lets the Driver select doors individually on the EKE TMS.
And finally you can Isolate the whole system and give full control to the Guard, that uses a mix of standard SDO, full door release, and locking doors individually.

 

[Ben Bow]

Thank you "PennineSuperb", most informative. You can't help but feel that the C-ASDO system fitted to the 185's will be more reliable and cause less confusion.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I hear rumours of a wrong side door failure during testing at Greenfield where the doors opened on the wrong side (away from the platform) when the driver gave door release on the correct platform side?

Some suggestion of a software or wiring issue being discovered which seems to depend on which cab from the Class 68 is leading?

Can @BMIFlyer comment?

 

[sjpowermac]

Agree, many thanks indeed to PennineSuperb for the very informative description.

Pic below of 68031 ‘Felix’ at sunny Scarborough taken this afternoon.

 

[tpjm]

I hear rumours of a wrong side door failure during testing at Greenfield where the doors opened on the wrong side (away from the platform) when the driver gave door release on the correct platform side?

Some suggestion of a software or wiring issue being discovered which seems to depend on which cab from the Class 68 is leading?

Can @BMIFlyer comment?

Where did you get the information that there was a wrong side fail at Greenfield? Haven't heard that.

 

[LittleAH]

I was only joking but as you've chosen to get so defensive it could be argued that despite the HST plug door work not going well, it is still going a lot better than TPEs efforts to get these MK5 sets into service.

I've defended TPE in the past but to be quite frank if they have to announce another delay to getting these into service it is going to be pretty embarrassing for them. And not to forget the poor customers who have to endure the 185s - I caught 2 of these earlier in the week and on both occasions it was standing room only

Dunno why it would be embarrassing for TPE when it's CAF's issue. Don't think many TOC's will be tempted by CAF stock in the future given how poor their trains seem to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dunno why it would be embarrassing for TPE when it's CAF's issue. Don't think many TOC's will be tempted by CAF stock in the future given how poor their trains seem to be.

Has any of the manufacturers (or refurbishers) come out smelling of roses in this round of rolling stock orders? Everything has had some sort of serious issue, even the venerable Siemens.

 

[ash39]

Dunno why it would be embarrassing for TPE when it's CAF's issue. Don't think many TOC's will be tempted by CAF stock in the future given how poor their trains seem to be.

On the flip side, given how much CAF will be learning from this process (embarrassing or otherwise), you'd like to think their next orders for UK stock should run much smoother (provided they get any). particularly if it's a follow on for mk5's or Civity DMU/EMU stock. By all accounts they are keenly priced so I don't think these issues will have a huge bearing on their future in the UK, provided they achieve reasonable reliability figures once they actually enter service...

 

[sjpowermac]

Has any of the manufacturers (or refurbishers) come out smelling of roses in this round of rolling stock orders? Everything has had some sort of serious issue, even the venerable Siemens.

I think the Nova 3 sets suffer a little bit from enthusiasts (myself included!) paying them a lot of attention. I couldn’t tell you when any of the other stock is due in service and wouldn’t be much interested if it never arrived

I agree with you, a quick look at ‘Modern Railways’ and it’s clear pretty much all the manufactures are behind with introducing new stock.

 

[The_Train]

Dunno why it would be embarrassing for TPE when it's CAF's issue. Don't think many TOC's will be tempted by CAF stock in the future given how poor their trains seem to be.

Do you think that the vast majority of TPEs customers will know or care where the trains are coming from? This is already reflecting badly on TPE and will only get worse if further delays are announced

 

[Ben Bow]

If anybody has access to them, I believe a National Incident Report has been issued about the CAF/TPE mk.5's which covers the problems with the ASDO and door operation.

 

[Darandio]

Do you think that the vast majority of TPEs customers will know or care where the trains are coming from? This is already reflecting badly on TPE and will only get worse if further delays are announced

But your argument was based on the poor efforts of TPE to get these trains into service. Which isn't the case.

 

[D6700]

It's not just the UK suffering significant delays to new rolling stock introduction. Here's an example from Germany:

In June 2013, DB Regio placed an order with Skoda for six trains, each formed of an electric loco with six double deck coaches, for use on the Munich to to Nuremberg fast route. These were planned to be in operation from December 2016. In July 2017, testing on the main line in Germany finally commenced, but things still didn't progress and they are now hoped to be in service by June 2019.

 

[158820]

If anybody has access to them, I believe a National Incident Report has been issued about the CAF/TPE mk.5's which covers the problems with the ASDO and door operation.

Is this the same incident report mentioned on this thread last Friday in post #2656?

 

[BMIFlyer]

I hear rumours of a wrong side door failure during testing at Greenfield where the doors opened on the wrong side (away from the platform) when the driver gave door release on the correct platform side?

Some suggestion of a software or wiring issue being discovered which seems to depend on which cab from the Class 68 is leading?

Can @BMIFlyer comment?

I could in theory comment on what the actual ASDO issue was but would like to have a job still so shall not be doing so.

 

[Bungle965]

It's not just the UK suffering significant delays to new rolling stock introduction. Here's an example from Germany:

In June 2013, DB Regio placed an order with Skoda for six trains, each formed of an electric loco with six double deck coaches, for use on the Munich to to Nuremberg fast route. These were planned to be in operation from December 2016. In July 2017, testing on the main line in Germany finally commenced, but things still didn't progress and they are now hoped to be in service by June 2019.

But, but. Germany is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong there!?!

Sam

 

[Richard Scott]

But, but. Germany is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong there!?!

Sam

Maybe we shouldn't mention Berlin's Brandenburg airport? Sure the Nova 3s will be running long before that opens!

 

[LittleAH]

Do you think that the vast majority of TPEs customers will know or care where the trains are coming from? This is already reflecting badly on TPE and will only get worse if further delays are announced

But it's not TPE's fault, how it looks to uniformed folk is - when you're getting to the root causes - is meaningless.

I do wonder if CAF are potentially in breach of their contracts with TPE/Northern if the trains aren't fit for purpose. Especially in TPE's case, it's looking like they should've gone down the route of the 802s...

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a strong argument that a uniform fleet of 5 car 80x would have offered ultimate flexibility.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Is the problem that all new train contracts have to go to the lowest cost bid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the problem that all new train contracts have to go to the lowest cost bid?

There's always a way around that - if they specified a bi mode CAF wouldn't have bid.

They went for LHCS because the theory was it'd be delivered quickly off the back of the CS order.

 

[mikemcniven]

A MK5a set (Unsure which sorry) has gone out this morning, at time of posting it was on the approach to Preston bound for Carlisle, seems the schedule is showing it as then heading to Bletchley before returning to MID this evening.

 

[_toommm_]

68030 and a MK5a set are currently sat on the opposite set of sidings to Longsight Depot - I also notice there's a new(ish) CAF logo on that building too...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dunno why it would be embarrassing for TPE when it's CAF's issue. Don't think many TOC's will be tempted by CAF stock in the future given how poor their trains seem to be.

TPE/Northern have contracts with DfT with commitments to introduce new/more/bigger trains by certain dates.
They can't go slopey-shouldered and say "not me, guv" when they can't meet those commitments.
It will cost £££ if the delays continue. It's up to TPE and the Rosco (Beacon Rail) to manage CAF to deliver.

CAF is also currently bidding for HS2 stock and is building an assembly plant in Newport for the TfW Civity order, so some big issues involved.​

Alstom (in the UK) has not yet recovered from its Coradia/Juniper shambles of 20 years ago - no mainline orders since the VT Pendolinos.

Mind you, Bombardier isn't having a great time with its Aventras, either (345, 710).

 

[Bornin1980s]

Wasn't there a time when railway companies simply built their own stock from scratch? Were there ever any delays back then?

 

[59CosG95]

Wasn't there a time when railway companies simply built their own stock from scratch? Were there ever any delays back then?

Ah yes, but stock from the days of the Big 4 (and before that) was a lot cheaper, a lot simpler...and a lot less safe.

 

[hwl]

The technology has been around on the U.K. network for some time. The earliest reference I can find to trials is 2012. SWT introduced it in fleet service in 2015. I found a thread on its introduction here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/444-450-asdo-introduction-into-passenger-service.121525/

(I hope I’ve linked that correctly, I’m still new here!).

One thing that does seem a little surprising is that it took so long for the Nova 3 sets to make their way over the core route. Whilst most of the train’s systems could be tested on any route, it would seem it is only possible to test ASDO on the intended route. I wonder when the beacons were installed?

Video below is less technical than the one posted earlier but it’s interesting from the point of view of daily operation from a guards perspective.

ASDO is way older than that. Part of the problem is that a lot of the older material has been lost "down the back of the internet" over time as website get updated.

The first use was Connex South Central / Porterbrooks 377 order. ASDO was one of the improvements over the Connex Southeastern specified 375s. The variation came from the Connex SC's fresh management team at the very end when they were trying to turn it around - the specifier was the later infamous Mr C Horton! (along with DOO cameras). The Porterbrook technical side was led by Ian Walmsley now Modern Railway Tech correspondent.

The initial system was GPS based and didn't work in areas with bad GPS signal leading to manual overrides and slow door opening e.g. at Victoria.

The second version of the then Southern system was an upgrade to improve the GPS issues in problem locations by using RFID beacons fitted between the rails (in a square section fibreglass yellow rod). The new equipment was supplied by Hima-Sella and called TrackLink II and has been fully operation on all 377s for the past 11+ years.

London Underground had been keeping an eye on the Southern ASDO work and for the 09 (Vic) and S (Met. Circ. Dist. + H&C) Stock specified ASDO and a new feature Correct Side Door Enabling - CSDE. The upgraded Hima-Sella system for LU became TrackLink III.

FCC then ordered Tracklink III for the 377/5s for use in the Thamelink core then being upgraded and TrackLink III was also later fitted to the 387s.

(NatEx Anglia 379 were only ordered with the original GPS only system that doesn't work...)

SWR then specified the TrackLink III system for the 458 5car mods (Windsor Line) and later other upgrades.

RSSB then wrote a standard to hopefully make all new implementation compatible and future proof. The main change was to swap from proprietary TrackLink III beacons to off the shelf passive Eurobalsies (lower cost and future proof).

The class 700 order for Thameslink was the first to implement the new RSSB method and Siemens had lots of fun with the software and testing positioning as they made a few bad assumption and took the standard too literally.

All new Siemens and Bombardier products (Desitro City and Aventra) comply with the RSSB standard - safe and relaible. The RSSB standard is become the defacto European way of doing ADSO in the ETCS era.

It appears First / CAF / Beacon all with no previous ASDO experience have gone cheap and ignored the carefully standard based on previous learning experience.