TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[Fokx]

The current timetable only requires four sets to be available on any given day. That means some need to be parked up, but the ones which are spare get rotated to some extent.

Id also add that further sets are being used for driver traction training which are not in passenger service, but are seeing (almost?) daily use.

 

[3973EXL]

ROG set swaps 09/11

Realtime Trains - 573Q 1033 Longsight Car. M.D. to Scarborough Tmd
Realtime Trains - 578Q 1515 Scarborough Tmd to Longsight Car. M.D.

 

[Watershed]

ROG set swaps 09/11

Realtime Trains - 573Q 1033 Longsight Car. M.D. to Scarborough Tmd
Realtime Trains - 578Q 1515 Scarborough Tmd to Longsight Car. M.D.

The former (5E16) was formed of two sets coupled 'blunt end' to 'sharp end', didn't catch the set numbers I'm afraid.

 

[3973EXL]

The former (5E16) was formed of two sets coupled 'blunt end' to 'sharp end', didn't catch the set numbers I'm afraid.

Reported elsewhere that TP10 & 6 were going to Scarboro & TP11 to return.

 

[Watershed]

Reported elsewhere that TP10 & 6 were going to Scarboro & TP11 to return.

Yep, just checked and that's correct. Hauled by 37611.

 

[L+Y]

December mk5 diagrams, taken from the excellent class68.co.uk website, are below:

Mondays - Saturdays
Diagram 1

5F48 04.43 Longsight - Manchester Vic 05.40
1F48 05.54 Manchester Vic - Liverpool06.34
1E25 06.54 Liverpool - Scarborough09.49
1F62 10.34 Scarborough - Manchester Vic12.49
1E35 13.01 Manchester Vic - Scarborough15.08
1F72 15.34 Scarborough - Liverpool18.34
1E49 19.21 Liverpool - Scarborough22.06

Diagram 2

1F54 06.34 Scarborough - Manchester Vic08.49
1E27 09.00 Manchester Vic - Scarborough11.08
1F64 11.34 Scarborough - Stalybridge13.36
1E37 14.10 Stalybridge - Scarborough16.08
1F74 16.34 Scarborough - Manchester Vic18.50
5H24 19.00 Manchester Vic - Longsight19.18

Diagram 3

5E23 05.45 Longsight - Manchester Vic06.18
1E23 06.30 Manchester Vic - Scarborough08.52
1F60 09.34 Scarborough - Stalybridge11.36
1E33 12.10 Stalybridge - Scarborough14.08
1F70 14.34 Scarborough - Manchester Vic16.48
1E43 17.00 Manchester Vic - Scarborough19.09
1T92 19.34 Scarborough - Leeds??.??via Methley?
1T51 21.24 Leeds - Scarborough23.02via Methley

Diagram 4

1F52 05.34 Scarborough - Liverpool08.35
5H52 09.15 Liverpool - Longsight10.14
For Fueling but may be a swap
5F45 15.06 Longsight - Liverpool16.53
1E45 17.25 Liverpool - Scarborough20.07
1P94 20.34 Scarborough - Manchester Air23.28
5H84 23.43 Manchester Air - Longsight00.26

Sundays are apparently to remain unchanged until February.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for posting the diagrams?

What's the reasoning behind the Stalybridge turnbacks? Apologies if already discussed elsewhere.

 

[Fokx]

Thanks for posting the diagrams?

What's the reasoning behind the Stalybridge turnbacks? Apologies if already discussed elsewhere.

Capacity constraints at Manchester Victoria

 

[Watershed]

Capacity constraints at Manchester Victoria

I do like some of the stuff people come up with

Thanks for posting the diagrams?

What's the reasoning behind the Stalybridge turnbacks? Apologies if already discussed elsewhere.

The fact that the trains are already on a minimum turnaround (12 mins) in the standard hour. And in those hours there are freight paths from Ashton Moss North Jn which mean that the trains wouldn't have that turnaround if they continued through to Victoria.

Normally not a problem, when the trains run through to Liverpool. But it breaks things when you're only running as far as Victoria.

I can't see that tight a turnaround lasting for the entire timetable period.

Sundays are apparently to remain unchanged until February.

Yes, there are so many weekends with blockades that they would barely run west of York anyway.

 

[XAM2175]

December mk5 diagrams, taken from the excellent class68.co.uk website, are below:

Mondays - Saturdays
Diagram 1

...

Sundays are apparently to remain unchanged until February.

I've taken the liberty of transcribing these into a more conventional timetable and filling the times from RTT:



Notes:
- A number of these schedules are currently shown in RTT as SSuX rather than SuX.
- 1T92 is shown as terminating at York rather than Leeds, but the return working 1T51 is shown as commencing at Leeds.
- 5F45 is routed Longsight > Picc > Stalybridge (reversal) > Vic > Liverpool
- 5H84 is routed Airport > Picc (reversal) > Longsight.

 

[Watershed]

- 1T92 is shown as terminating at York rather than Leeds, but the return working 1T51 is shown as commencing at Leeds.

Check back in a few weeks and both services will show as running to/from Leeds via Castleford.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The fact that the trains are already on a minimum turnaround (12 mins) in the standard hour. And in those hours there are freight paths from Ashton Moss North Jn which mean that the trains wouldn't have that turnaround if they continued through to Victoria.

I can't see that tight a turnaround lasting for the entire timetable period.


Yes, there are so many weekends with blockades that they would barely run west of York anyway.

Why do train planners still not get that 10 minute minimal turnarounds DO NOT WORK on these routes! Please take it from a member of front line train crew and 20 years experience that 10 minutes is not enough time to unload, dispose, clean, re-label prep and board a train. Was nothing learned from TPEs introduction of Newcastle-liverpool services or from the farce that was the 2018 timetable? Maybe in commuter land 10 minutes is acceptable but not medium distance inter-urban and intercity services such as these.

 

[47827]

Why do train planners still not get that 10 minute minimal turnarounds DO NOT WORK on these routes! Please take it from a member of front line train crew and 20 years experience that 10 minutes is not enough time to unload, dispose, clean, re-label prep and board a train. Was nothing learned from TPEs introduction of Newcastle-liverpool services or from the farce that was the 2018 timetable? Maybe in commuter land 10 minutes is acceptable but not medium distance inter-urban and intercity services such as these.

I fully agree with you there. Sadly because its an interim timetable we've slipped into that silly tight turnarounds situation as the trains mostly still don't run to Liverpool and there was a need to do something a bit better than Scarborough to York shuttles so a compromise has now been seen to be reached from December. The compromise is a timetable that is a potential performance headache now for the several trains that terminate in Victoria and return East. Ideally a 5th set would be in the mix during this period to remove this specific issue but that then presumably means extra crews to take the sets away for an hour+ at a time and the pathing of local ECS moves to somewhere with space as I think the turnback sidings may still be used for EMU stock to clear platforms. Extending the trains to Piccadilly would solve the issue at Victoria but then divert the problem to another bottleneck. I suppose I'm trying to make sense of what the alternatives are. They are all pretty rubbish, that is until the trains can simply carry on to Liverpool again (after May hopefully).

 

[SuperNova]

I fully agree with you there. Sadly because its an interim timetable we've slipped into that silly tight turnarounds situation as the trains mostly still don't run to Liverpool and there was a need to do something a bit better than Scarborough to York shuttles so a compromise has now been seen to be reached from December. The compromise is a timetable that is a potential performance headache now for the several trains that terminate in Victoria and return East. Ideally a 5th set would be in the mix during this period to remove this specific issue but that then presumably means extra crews to take the sets away for an hour+ at a time and the pathing of local ECS moves to somewhere with space as I think the turnback sidings may still be used for EMU stock to clear platforms. Extending the trains to Piccadilly would solve the issue at Victoria but then divert the problem to another bottleneck. I suppose I'm trying to make sense of what the alternatives are. They are all pretty rubbish, that is until the trains can simply carry on to Liverpool again (after May hopefully).

The problem is pathing (stitching of the Newcastle to Liverpool's) with the turnarounds. It's important to get an additional core route service back up and running though, so as an interim this should fulfil the intended purpose.

However, certainly westbound those services are going to face two issues. 1) following the Northern from York to Blackpool and 2) If there are any delays to the Redcar to Man Airport leaving Leeds, it will impact the stopper, thus impacting the Scarborough's terminating at Victoria.

 

[Watershed]

Why do train planners still not get that 10 minute minimal turnarounds DO NOT WORK on these routes! Please take it from a member of front line train crew and 20 years experience that 10 minutes is not enough time to unload, dispose, clean, re-label prep and board a train. Was nothing learned from TPEs introduction of Newcastle-liverpool services or from the farce that was the 2018 timetable? Maybe in commuter land 10 minutes is acceptable but not medium distance inter-urban and intercity services such as these.

I think the people responsible will have been well aware of the risk which this introduces.

Unfortunately it's a necessary evil to get more Mk5s back into traffic, to keep up the traction knowledge that's being gradually regained, as well as to support the service increases that are needed to accommodate the rebounding passenger loadings that have been observed over recent months.

Certainly I'd like to hope that the traction training programme progresses quickly enough - and that Rail North funding is forthcoming - to allow those services to be extended back through to Liverpool ASAP.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've taken the liberty of transcribing these into a more conventional timetable and filling the times from RTT:

View attachment 105390

Notes:
- A number of these schedules are currently shown in RTT as SSuX rather than SuX.
- 1T92 is shown as terminating at York rather than Leeds, but the return working 1T51 is shown as commencing at Leeds.
- 5F45 is routed Longsight > Picc > Stalybridge (reversal) > Vic > Liverpool
- 5H84 is routed Airport > Picc (reversal) > Longsight.

That’s very easy-to-read and informative. Thank you for taking the time to make it.

 

[XAM2175]

Check back in a few weeks and both services will show as running to/from Leeds via Castleford.

Cheers, I thought that might be the case.

That’s very easy-to-read and informative. Thank you for taking the time to make it.

My pleasure.

 

[xotGD]

My work trips to Manchester suddenly look much more appealing!

(Written from the confines of a Class 185.)

 

[supervc-10]

Might have to work out a trip to York sometime before I move back down south! Been wanting to get on the Mk.5s, having now been on both the other new Nova fleets.

 

[43 302]

TP should be diverting around Leeds on Jan 2nd via Altofts Jn and Wakefield Kirkgate. Not sure if there's a better thread for this but I couldn't find one.

Realtime Trains | 1E27 0831 Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough | 02/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E27 0831 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough on 02/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

TP should be diverting around Leeds on Jan 2nd via Altofts Jn and Wakefield Kirkgate. Not sure if there's a better thread for this but I couldn't find one.

Realtime Trains | 1E27 0831 Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough | 02/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E27 0831 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough on 02/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Sadly none will be Mk5s...

 

[Roger B]

TP should be diverting around Leeds on Jan 2nd via Altofts Jn and Wakefield Kirkgate. Not sure if there's a better thread for this but I couldn't find one.

Realtime Trains | 1E27 0831 Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough | 02/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E27 0831 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough on 02/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There are a few threads about development of Castleford station, and enhanced services, including through trains

 

[tpjm]

Sadly none will be Mk5s...

Hardly 'sadly'. The railway exists to run a service for paying customers to get from A to B, not for enthusiasts to get some haulage over a diversionary route. A pair of 185s is a much more sensible choice, purely for the number of seats if not the operational resilience.

2x 185s: 338 seats (+12 tip-up)
Nova 3: 291 seats (+6 tip-up)
(both figures excluding wheelchair spaces)

 

[Richard Scott]

Hardly 'sadly'. The railway exists to run a service for paying customers to get from A to B, not for enthusiasts to get some haulage over a diversionary route. A pair of 185s is a much more sensible choice, purely for the number of seats if not the operational resilience.

2x 185s: 338 seats (+12 tip-up)
Nova 3: 291 seats (+6 tip-up)
(both figures excluding wheelchair spaces)

What are the fuel costs and other running costs just for comparison?

 

[xotGD]

Hardly 'sadly'. The railway exists to run a service for paying customers to get from A to B, not for enthusiasts to get some haulage over a diversionary route. A pair of 185s is a much more sensible choice, purely for the number of seats if not the operational resilience.

2x 185s: 338 seats (+12 tip-up)
Nova 3: 291 seats (+6 tip-up)
(both figures excluding wheelchair spaces)

The railway might not exist for the benefit of enthusiasts. However, this thread does.

 

[Watershed]

Hardly 'sadly'. The railway exists to run a service for paying customers to get from A to B, not for enthusiasts to get some haulage over a diversionary route.

Of course not. I was referring to the fact that those diverted services are not really relevant to a thread about Mk5s, and therefore people in this group of enthusiasts shouldn't get their hopes up.

 

[alexl92]

They have all been in service. It is just that they aren't needed at present.

Is this why, despite driving through the middle of Leeds along Marsh Lane under the viaduct almost daily, I've never seen a TPE MK5 set crossing the viaduct? I've seen them in Leeds station, but for some reason only ever seen 185, 80x and 397s.

 

[Watershed]

Is this why, despite driving through the middle of Leeds along Marsh Lane under the viaduct almost daily, I've never seen a TPE MK5 set crossing the viaduct? I've seen them in Leeds station, but for some reason only ever seen 185, 80x and 397s.

At the moment, you should see 2 eastbound and 2 westbound Mk5 sets a day, passing Marsh Lane at around 08:28, 16:28, 16:55 and 21:54.

 

[bengley]

Is this why, despite driving through the middle of Leeds along Marsh Lane under the viaduct almost daily, I've never seen a TPE MK5 set crossing the viaduct? I've seen them in Leeds station, but for some reason only ever seen 185, 80x and 397s.

I don't think you've seen 397s in Leeds...

 

[alexl92]

At the moment, you should see 2 eastbound and 2 westbound Mk5 sets a day, passing Marsh Lane at around 08:28, 16:28, 16:55 and 21:54.

Ahh, right, that would explain it. Bad luck that I miss them then. Cheers

I don't think you've seen 397s in Leeds.

Yeah of course, sorry! Just the 802s and 185s then.