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TPE Nova 1 Class 802/2 Progress

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AndrewE

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JonathanH

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Looks like members only. And seems to be reports, rather than plans. Maybe you just can't predict which circuits or trains won't be an 802 on any particular day...

Yes, but being members only doesn't stop anyone joining.

Also, the postings frequently include a summary of the allocated workings for the day. From that you have the diagrams which are nominally 802s and which ones for that day are covered by 185s.

The underlying 13 diagrams don't change day to day. It is just that they aren't solid 802s in practice yet.
 

tobytronic

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On Wed 27/2 I needed to travel York to Edinburgh return in same day with an early north and a late south ticket needed. Went with TPE and saved maybe £10 each way to try an get best value - it was a business trip so not my funds but trying to wring the best out of budgets, etc. Had a ticket for 9S05 07:22 York-Edin and bot there in good time to see it cancelled. Looking for help I visited the LNER 'booth' near W H Smith on the concourse and explained my disappointment and asked for their help. Another passenger, a young business woman was equally stuck and had a connection in Edin which would be missed. After me guessing that reciprocal arrangements would be non existent the LNER team said "....not ideal but get any TPE train to Newcsastle" and then he believed there was a Newcastle to Edin service run by TPE but seemed a bit unsure and apologetic.

30 seconds later he appeared with 2 paper handwritten 'tickets'. stamped by them, with handwritten notes explaining my plight to the guard on the LNER train he now landing ay York going to Edin. Never seen this before, the 2nd one went to the young traveller equally left in the lurch by TPE.

So big thanks to LNER and big thanks to Harry from LNER at York. :cake::cake::cake:

Unexpected. Now, everybody I meet who is bothered will hear this tale of over delivery with nothing but goodwill in mind......

Guard was a bit snarky when he clipped the ticket not to worry - he looked busy and LNER did a good job but............ it was late arriving into York as the TPE service got too York, empty, and hogged the platform in rush hour and then waited a path back towards Leeds. The LNER service (1W02) now 8m late ended up 2m early in Edin. Lovely job by all. Took a photo of the gleaming TPE beauty for the laugh - it did exist after all.

Sorry for the long story but there are good guys and gals out there .......and Harry from LNER - you're on that list.

Not sure what caused this but are TPE too stretched on this longer hop to Edinburgh?
 

37201xoIM

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I will never understand why they opted to return back to and ordered trains based on a proven unworkable and unpractically short turnaround time, knowing already the short turnaround times were disastrous to service presentation, punctuality and reliability across the network and even affected catering provision.
I suspect you do...: because that is how franchise bidding works. See Arriva Rail North's spectacularly undeliverable franchise bid and the fleet that was assumed...
 

Groundhopper

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Apologies if this has been asked before - I've seen quite a few TPE 802s on the stretch between Newcastle and Edinburgh now, but the majority of the time they seem to be operating on diesel power despite the presence of wires from York northwards.

Would this be due to there not being enough power to go around on that stretch at present? I vaguely remember reading about a new sub-station being planned near Berwick.
 

swt_passenger

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Apologies if this has been asked before - I've seen quite a few TPE 802s on the stretch between Newcastle and Edinburgh now, but the majority of the time they seem to be operating on diesel power despite the presence of wires from York northwards.

Would this be due to there not being enough power to go around on that stretch at present? I vaguely remember reading about a new sub-station being planned near Berwick.
In addition to JonathanH’s recent reply, this thread discusses the ECML power supply upgrade features and locations:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/infrastructure-stations.43/

AIUI there are supposed to be locations with automatic power changeover on the move, at Chathill and Longniddry - additional timing points have been inserted at these locations
 

gimmea50anyday

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We change over manually at designated station stops. So northbound we go electric at York and back on to diesel at Morpeth. Southbound we run on diesel from edinburgh to morpeth, electric morpeth to york then back on diesel until manchester Victoria pan goes back up

It's a little different on sundays, we are electric up to Man Vicc and between Durham and Morpeth only.

Basically since LNER switched from HSTs to Bi-mode the OHLE doesn't have enough power to sustain potentially 4 LNERs and 2 TPEs in that section between Chathill OHNS and Longniddry OHNS. The feeder at Marshall Meadows isn't strong enough and was designed to only ever support 2x electras + 1 freight which was all that was expected at electrification when far less trains were run (they arent supposed to be running 2x5car 80x sets north of Newcastle either...) quite what we would have done if e-voyagers were ever built is beyond me.....
 

jopsuk

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We change over manually at designated station stops. So northbound we go electric at York and back on to diesel at Morpeth. Southbound we run on diesel from edinburgh to morpeth, electric morpeth to york then back on diesel until manchester Victoria pan goes back up

It's a little different on sundays, we are electric up to Man Vicc and between Durham and Morpeth only.

Basically since LNER switched from HSTs to Bi-mode the OHLE doesn't have enough power to sustain potentially 4 LNERs and 2 TPEs in that section between Chathill OHNS and Longniddry OHNS. The feeder at Marshall Meadows isn't strong enough and was designed to only ever support 2x electras + 1 freight which was all that was expected at electrification when far less trains were run (they arent supposed to be running 2x5car 80x sets north of Newcastle either...) quite what we would have done if e-voyagers were ever built is beyond me.....
Actually fixed the issue? Actually, nah, that's madness
 

swt_passenger

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We change over manually at designated station stops. So northbound we go electric at York and back on to diesel at Morpeth. Southbound we run on diesel from edinburgh to morpeth, electric morpeth to york then back on diesel until manchester Victoria pan goes back up...
Thanks for confirming changeover still happens during appropriate station calls. I was hedging my bets when I wrote “supposed to” because I was pretty sure it wasn’t happening, no-one had mentioned it in other threads.

Are the auto changeovers implied by the two new timing points ever likely to happen?
 

gimmea50anyday

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Not sure. I do believe (so could be completely wrong...) NR was sceptical that the changeover at speed would be risky for the ECMLs ropey OHLE but they seemed to have calmed down about that now. The stationary changeover is however current TPE policy, I suspect this is down to newness and may change in future. I’m sure @tpjm or @BMIFlyer will know more and can confirm?
 

tpjm

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My understanding is that there is some concern about switching on the move when approaching unwired sections due to a lack of standardised signage to remind the Driver. There have been a number of incidents across the industry where Drivers have forgotten to change power, or in the context of an EMU, stopped to question the route, entered an unwired section and caused damage or delay, or both. Naturally, any TOC would be keen to avoid this, so I don’t think limiting the changeover to static locations at present is a bad thing. Eventually there are plans to install trackside balise which will tell the train to switchover automatically.

The cynic in me also says that given the number of power-changeover issues the TPE 802s have had whilst stationary, it’s best to keep it this way for a while - nobody wants Colton Junction blocked whilst the Driver phones Hitachi Maintenance.
 

Phlip

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My understanding is that there is some concern about switching on the move when approaching unwired sections due to a lack of standardised signage to remind the Driver. There have been a number of incidents across the industry where Drivers have forgotten to change power, or in the context of an EMU, stopped to question the route, entered an unwired section and caused damage or delay, or both. Naturally, any TOC would be keen to avoid this, so I don’t think limiting the changeover to static locations at present is a bad thing. Eventually there are plans to install trackside balise which will tell the train to switchover automatically.

The cynic in me also says that given the number of power-changeover issues the TPE 802s have had whilst stationary, it’s best to keep it this way for a while - nobody wants Colton Junction blocked whilst the Driver phones Hitachi Maintenance.

It was a requirement of the design of these trains that could safely change power source on the move. Seems pretty scandalous that the industry continues to unnecessarily burn diesel when the wires are available and can support the service (also scandalous that power upgrades haven’t been completed, but that’s for a different thread). Seriously undermines calls for further electrification. Time the Hitachi and the operators got their act together.
 

Killingworth

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It was a requirement of the design of these trains that could safely change power source on the move. Seems pretty scandalous that the industry continues to unnecessarily burn diesel when the wires are available and can support the service (also scandalous that power upgrades haven’t been completed, but that’s for a different thread). Seriously undermines calls for further electrification. Time the Hitachi and the operators got their act together.

I'd have thought that with the fragility of all TPE services at present the avoidance of one more potential risk is a very prudent strategy. Once stability is achieved the electric percentage can be increased.
 

385001

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My understanding is that there is some concern about switching on the move when approaching unwired sections due to a lack of standardised signage to remind the Driver. There have been a number of incidents across the industry where Drivers have forgotten to change power, or in the context of an EMU, stopped to question the route, entered an unwired section and caused damage or delay, or both. Naturally, any TOC would be keen to avoid this, so I don’t think limiting the changeover to static locations at present is a bad thing. Eventually there are plans to install trackside balise which will tell the train to switchover automatically.

The cynic in me also says that given the number of power-changeover issues the TPE 802s have had whilst stationary, it’s best to keep it this way for a while - nobody wants Colton Junction blocked whilst the Driver phones Hitachi Maintenance.

Thanks for the explanation. It certainly explains why all the TPE 802s I've seen at Edinburgh Waverley have been on diesel. Disappointing but understandable and hopefully temporary.
 

Phlip

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I'd have thought that with the fragility of all TPE services at present the avoidance of one more potential risk is a very prudent strategy. Once stability is achieved the electric percentage can be increased.

I'd have thought that the significantly superior performance on electric would be very useful accelerating out of York toward Leeds (and Morpeth to Edinburgh), given the fragility of TPE services.
 

matacaster

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I'd have thought that the significantly superior performance on electric would be very useful accelerating out of York toward Leeds (and Morpeth to Edinburgh), given the fragility of TPE services.

The acceleration out of York towards Leeds may be of less benefit than you think when the wires run out!
 

Phlip

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The acceleration out of York towards Leeds may be of less benefit than you think when the wires run out!

No. They change to diesel at Colton Junction having reached line speed. That’s the idea of bimodes being able to change on the move isn’t it?
 

gimmea50anyday

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No, we do not. As I have already pointed out, as has @tpjm mentioned a reason as to why, we do this stationary at York. It is TPE policy and clearly written in the drivers diagrams.

No. They change to diesel at Colton Junction having reached line speed. That’s the idea of bimodes being able to change on the move isn’t it?
 

Spartacus

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No, we do not. As I have already pointed out, as has @tpjm mentioned a reason as to why, we do this stationary at York. It is TPE policy and clearly written in the drivers diagrams.

I think even if everyone who works in the industry could give him one of 100 different valid reasons why they aren’t doing the changeover at speed he’d still insist that was wrong.....
 

hwl

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I think even if everyone who works in the industry could give him one of 100 different valid reasons why they aren’t doing the changeover at speed he’d still insist that was wrong.....
There are also plenty of headspans (on curves) in the York area so probably sensible to do it while stopped in the station as lower risk.
The IET change overs at speed on the GW all have much higher wire tension and better registration.
 

59CosG95

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There are also plenty of headspans (on curves) in the York area so probably sensible to do it while stopped in the station as lower risk.
The IET change overs at speed on the GW all have much higher wire tension and better registration.
Yes - in OLE terms, the OLEMI (Mk3b) system used on the ECML through York has lower tension (11kN/11kN) than Series 1 (16.5kN/13kN) for contact and catenary wires respectively.
I'm not sure if there's been any modelling for lower speed pan-ups and pan-downs on any make of Mk3 OLE (Mk3, Mk3a, Mk3b, Mk3c or Mk3d), but bearing in mind the precarious nature of headspans, and possible environmental factors (e.g. the storms we've had this winter!), panning up or down while stationary at a station stop seems to be the least risky approach in my mind.

Certainly the power gap between Morpeth & Longniddry is due to be resolved as part of ECML PSU 2; a new Static Frequency Converter Feeder Station is due to be built at Marshall Meadows, similar to the Potteric Carr Independent Feeder commissioned last autumn. (A similar one is also due to be built at Hambleton Jct.)
The scope of PSU 2 is (AFAIK) yet to be determined, so I don't yet know whether they'll jumper out the remaining Booster Transformers and go for boosterless classic feeding (with Return Screening Conductors in the signalling troughs), or go for Auto-Transformer feeding (plus RSCs in troughs), or something else entirely.
 

swt_passenger

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No. They [should] change to diesel at Colton Junction having reached line speed. That’s the idea of bimodes being able to change on the move isn’t it?
The problem here is that you’ve written that as a statement of what they do, rather than including the word should...
 
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